Penalty for unauthorized leaving floor

[chartrusepengui]

You haven't read anything like that from me, so let's not start down that road. In fact, I haven't looked back over the whole thread, but I don't recall seeing any posts like that at all.

scrapper - I was not accusing you personally - I didn't say I read those messages from you so I wasn't going down that road.

You're going to call the game the way you call the game - that does not make it right nor wrong. However - please don't say that I am mistaken.

As he rises to the balls of his feet to release his first free throw, the toe of his sneaker touches the edge of the free throw line. I submit to you that if you call that violation and essentially end the game in that situation that you simply don't understand what's important in the game of basketball. That toe barely touching the edge of that line has nothing to do with the game and should not be called a violation.

Point is - toe on the line is a violation

you simply don't understand what's important in the game of basketball.

tell that to the team and coach that lost because you kicked a rule - I'll bet they don't feel the same as you do.

Do what you want but IMO you are not correct in this situation

And I know that a college assignor would kill you for calling it. A high school assignor might not kill you, but I bet you'd get a phone call explaining the facts of life in no uncertain terms.

maybe where you live but in fact I have gotten games both HS Var and JUCO because I had the courage to make that call.

I guess it's just different strokes for different folks. Neither one of us is going to change the other's mind and we both feel the other is mistaken.

But - for the record - I do respect and enjoy reading many of the posts you have put out in the past. I find I agree with you in most situations. Sometimes it's good to air out differences - this being one of those times.

Happy and safe holidays

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

maybe where you live but in fact I have gotten games both HS Var and JUCO because I had the courage to make that call.

I guess it's just different strokes for different folks.

It's different strokes for different assignors. If you really think this is what they want in your area, and others are all calling it the same way, then that's great. In my area, you cancel a 1-on-1 with score tied and 3 seconds left because there was a shoe just barely grazing the ft line, well, you won't be doing a lot more games at that level -- ever. But that's how we all call it here, players are used to it here, coaches know that here. If it's different in your area, then that's what's gotta be done.

[chartrusepengui]

Now this I totally agree with! The biggest hassles I've had with the college coaches/players complaining occur when we do a series of games over the holidays. Teams have come from all over the nation and we'll often hear coaches complain that they don't "get that in Carolina" or "that's a focus point where we play". That said - we don't get many complaints with the conference teams in either bracket.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

scrapper - I was not accusing you personally - I didn't say I read those messages from you so I wasn't going down that road.

Awesome. Sometimes the "tone" of a post is hard to read. I appreciate that this discussion has been level-headed for the most part.

You're going to call the game the way you call the game - that does not make it right nor wrong. However - please don't say that I am mistaken.

Ok, you're. . . slightly less than correct. . . marginally deviating from acceptable. . . sub-optimal? Joking!! I'm just kidding around. You're obviously correct that we view this differently. Just like I can't imagine somebody seeing a player out of bounds and intentionally ignoring it, I can't imagine somebody waving off a free throw for having 1/8 inch of rubber on the free throw line. But if you are being rewarded for calling it, then it would be dumb for you to stop doing it.

Point is - toe on the line is a violation

I agree that it's a violation. I disagree that that is the point.

tell that to the team and coach that lost because you kicked a rule - I'll bet they don't feel the same as you do.

Honestly, I bet they do feel the same if you give them some time to cool off and think about it. "Coach, it didn't seem like such a big deal when we let it go on your end of the court." Nobody wants to win a game because a ref calls a microscopic violation.

I have gotten games both HS Var and JUCO because I had the courage to make that call.

Then, as I said, you'd be stupid to stop doing it.

Sometimes it's good to air out differences - this being one of those times.

Happy and safe holidays

True enough. Happy holiday to you and your family, too.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

maybe where you live but in fact I have gotten games both HS Var and JUCO because I had the courage to make that call.

OK, I know I am only looking at one small part of this post here, but I gotta call "bullsh!t" on this part. No way did you get hired to do Varsity and JC games because you had the courage to call a freaking free throw violation. No way.

My guess would be that you were hired to work that level of ball because you not only know the letter of the rule, but also the intent of the rule. And you know how to apply those rules in the correct manner (despite what you have repeated in this thread).

[BillyMac]

"As Bob Jenkins said, the concept is hard to explain. Be that as it may, it is still well understood."

Didn't a Supreme Court Justice once say "I don't know what the definition of pornography is, but I know it when I see it".

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

"As Bob Jenkins said, the concept is hard to explain. Be that as it may, it is still well understood."

Didn't a Supreme Court Justice once say "I don't know what the definition of pornography is, but I know it when I see it".

It was Justice Potter Stewart and he was speaking about obscenity.

[just another ref]

Just caught up on this looooong thread so I guess I can give my opinion like everybody else. Ironically, the free throw shooter foot on the line no-call is the one that caused a local jr. high coach, who is a friend of mine, to declare that I shouldn't call his games any more. In this case as the ball was bounced to the kid to shoot, he stepped up and put a toe slightly on the line, then looked down and stepped back before he shot. I personally have never called this violation at any level. But, if the shooter is touching the line when he shoots or jumps and comes down on the line, I call that at every level.
My personal thing on 3 seconds is to call it on a player that is completely in the lane with both feet, regardless of what else he is doing, or call it on a player that is actively involved in the play, no matter what small part he has in the lane, such as a player trying to post up. But my count is always generous in either instance. Only time I have ever called leaving the court for an unauthorized reason was for a player who was making a dash from one wing to the opposite corner and ran completely out of bounds even though he had plenty of room to stay in if he had chosen to do so. IOW, his leaving the court was not only unauthorized but totally unnecessary. I have heard the expression: "You call that one just for his ignorance." He was not alone, as no one on his team, including the head coach, seemed to have ever heard of the rule.

The NCAA often these days seems to treat traveling as "no big thing." Tonight in the Depaul/Vanderbilt game, with 30 seconds left in a 2 point game, a Depaul guy broke loose on a throw-in, caught the ball, took 2 long strides, and then put the ball on the floor before getting fouled on the shot. It was so obvious that the announcers noticed it, agreed on it, and laughed about it.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The NCAA often these days seems to treat traveling as "no big thing." Tonight in the Depaul/Vanderbilt game, with 30 seconds left in a 2 point game, a Depaul guy broke loose on a throw-in, caught the ball, took 2 long strides, and then put the ball on the floor before getting fouled on the shot. It was so obvious that the announcers noticed it, agreed on it, and laughed about it.

Yea, that's a real good indication of the NCAA attitude...

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Yea, that's a real good indication of the NCAA attitude...

That one went over my head. What do you mean by that?

[Adam]

JAR, don't worry about Juulie. She's just a bit cranky tonight. Something about a tennis bracelet.