Penalty for unauthorized leaving floor

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

I disagree - I'm not . I read many sanctamonious messages about how sacred "certain" rules are and if someone does not call them a certain way - they are misinformed, 2nd rate officials. I was not aware that the Fed, NCAA or any other body says that you should only call the rules that you want to call, or that you are to interpret rules your own way. In fact, I have read many posts that state; "don't read so much into this rule" etc

Don't call the rules if you don't want to but please don't tell me I am mistaken. I am not trying to inflame anyone - but there seems to be too much finger pointing and name calling. A wise man once said, "Opinions are like a$$holes - everyone has one and they all stink!"

I haven't really seen any finger-pointing and name-calling in this thread. Well, except for maybe you trying to tell people that they lack integrity if they don't call the game the way that you think it should be called. I do see other officials voicing opinions that are diametrically opposite.

For the record, I take it that you are you following the same philosophy as Nevada. You advocate calling 3-seconds strictly as defined in the rules, with no warning, etc. And if a FT shooter takes 11 seconds, that's an immediate violation. Correct?

The bottom line is that each official has to decide their own philosophy as to what to call or not call. Obviously, nothing that is being posted here will change your philosophy either. That's fine too.

[chartrusepengui]

Here we go

If I am going to give a warning it's going to before 3 seconds, and yes I will blow the whistle if a FT shooter takes 11 seconds because by the time he catches the ball and I have visually started my count it's more than likely been longer than 11 seconds anyway. BTW - have you EVER come close to calling that one? I don't think that I've ever gotten close to 10.

I did not tell anyone how to call their game - or at least didn't intend to but I can't be responsible for how everyone interprets what they read. I did question however, not making calls in situations that they don't deem to be very important. If I missed something in the book could you please give me the specific rule that allows for this. In some threads some of the same people are very firm about making a call to the letter of the rule - but in other threads feel it's not as important. My real question is: not important to who? What if a team loses a game because a FT was counted when toe is on line whether a whole toe or an eighth of an inch. That would be important to the losing team IMO I'm sorry if you have somehow been offended by my view or questions. I guess that I just feel that if you don't call something that you see because at the time you don't feel it significant - that same call could have a huge impact in the outcome of the game.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

I read many sanctamonious messages about how sacred "certain" rules are and if someone does not call them a certain way - they are misinformed, 2nd rate officials.

You haven't read anything like that from me, so let's not start down that road. In fact, I haven't looked back over the whole thread, but I don't recall seeing any posts like that at all.

Don't call the rules if you don't want to but please don't tell me I am mistaken.

Well, I said at the very beginning of this discussion that I am unable to convince you if you disagree with me. But you are, in fact, mistaken. Sorry.

4 seconds left in a varsity game. Team A trails by 2. A1 is fouled and awarded a 1-and-1. As he rises to the balls of his feet to release his first free throw, the toe of his sneaker touches the edge of the free throw line. I submit to you that if you call that violation and essentially end the game in that situation that you simply don't understand what's important in the game of basketball. That toe barely touching the edge of that line has nothing to do with the game and should not be called a violation.

And I know that a college assignor would kill you for calling it. A high school assignor might not kill you, but I bet you'd get a phone call explaining the facts of life in no uncertain terms.

[chartrusepengui]

You haven't read anything like that from me, so let's not start down that road. In fact, I haven't looked back over the whole thread, but I don't recall seeing any posts like that at all.

scrapper - I was not accusing you personally - I didn't say I read those messages from you so I wasn't going down that road.

You're going to call the game the way you call the game - that does not make it right nor wrong. However - please don't say that I am mistaken.

As he rises to the balls of his feet to release his first free throw, the toe of his sneaker touches the edge of the free throw line. I submit to you that if you call that violation and essentially end the game in that situation that you simply don't understand what's important in the game of basketball. That toe barely touching the edge of that line has nothing to do with the game and should not be called a violation.

Point is - toe on the line is a violation

you simply don't understand what's important in the game of basketball.

tell that to the team and coach that lost because you kicked a rule - I'll bet they don't feel the same as you do.

Do what you want but IMO you are not correct in this situation

And I know that a college assignor would kill you for calling it. A high school assignor might not kill you, but I bet you'd get a phone call explaining the facts of life in no uncertain terms.

maybe where you live but in fact I have gotten games both HS Var and JUCO because I had the courage to make that call.

I guess it's just different strokes for different folks. Neither one of us is going to change the other's mind and we both feel the other is mistaken.

But - for the record - I do respect and enjoy reading many of the posts you have put out in the past. I find I agree with you in most situations. Sometimes it's good to air out differences - this being one of those times.

Happy and safe holidays

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

maybe where you live but in fact I have gotten games both HS Var and JUCO because I had the courage to make that call.

I guess it's just different strokes for different folks.

It's different strokes for different assignors. If you really think this is what they want in your area, and others are all calling it the same way, then that's great. In my area, you cancel a 1-on-1 with score tied and 3 seconds left because there was a shoe just barely grazing the ft line, well, you won't be doing a lot more games at that level -- ever. But that's how we all call it here, players are used to it here, coaches know that here. If it's different in your area, then that's what's gotta be done.

[chartrusepengui]

Now this I totally agree with! The biggest hassles I've had with the college coaches/players complaining occur when we do a series of games over the holidays. Teams have come from all over the nation and we'll often hear coaches complain that they don't "get that in Carolina" or "that's a focus point where we play". That said - we don't get many complaints with the conference teams in either bracket.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I believe in making calls that can be validated on video. If the player has a foot on the FT line, they have violated.

So if the game's not being taped you'll pass on this?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

I did question however, not making calls in situations that they don't deem to be very important. If I missed something in the book could you please give me the specific rule that allows for this.

The rule book does specifically talk about knowing the "intent and purpose of the rule so it may be intelligently applied" (or something like that). And, it talks about advantage / disadvantage on all rules. That's all we're discussing here.

It's very difficult to write specific words that correclty and clearly convey to all people how they should be applied in all situations.

Another attempt at explaining what Scrapper and I (and others) mean: Look at what you need to look at. IOW, if a player is alone in the backcourt, you don't need to watch him / her very closely. So, if there's a "minor" palming, or travel, you probably won't (shouldn't) see it. If there's a press, you need to watch, and you will (should) see it.

[chartrusepengui]

Another attempt at explaining what Scrapper and I (and others) mean: Look at what you need to look at. IOW, if a player is alone in the backcourt, you don't need to watch him / her very closely. So, if there's a "minor" palming, or travel, you probably won't (shouldn't) see it. If there's a press, you need to watch, and you will (should) see it.

This I will agree with - however - I was pointing out that if you see it in a close game where a violation could affect the outcome of the game it should be called. In a blowout - with player alone in backcourt I would not be watching as closely. In a tie or one point game I am going to be watching same situation much closer.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

Here we go

If I am going to give a warning it's going to before 3 seconds, and yes I will blow the whistle if a FT shooter takes 11 seconds because by the time he catches the ball and I have visually started my count it's more than likely been longer than 11 seconds anyway.

I did question however, not making calls in situations that they don't deem to be very important. If I missed something in the book could you please give me the specific rule that allows for this.

Yup, here we go again.

Now you've confused the heck outa me. You previously made a a comment about the NFHS and NCAA not saying that we should interpret rules our own way. You also above question officials for not making calls in situations that they don't deem important. But........you're still prepared to warn someone for 3-seconds instead of just calling it according to the rulebook? If I missed something in the book, could you please give me the specific rule that allows for this?

Afaik, there's no provision in either the NCAA or NFHS rules for "warnings" instead of actually calling 3-second violations. If you're warning somebody, aren't you....gasp....interpreting the rules your own way?

[chartrusepengui]

try reading my post again - I said if I gave a warning it would be before three seconds

[chartrusepengui]

and no I'm not interpreting the rules my own way - show me the rule that says I can't warn someone in the lane before 3 seconds by saying "keep moving" or "in and out".

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

try reading my post again - I said if I gave a warning it would be before three seconds

Yup. And I asked you to cite a rule saying that you can WARN a player not to commit a violation. I'm still waiting.

You're the one that wants to follow the rules. Just tell me what rule you're following when you warn a player instead of just waiting for the 3 seconds to lapse.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

and no I'm not interpreting the rules my own way - show me the rule that says I can't warn someone in the lane before 3 seconds by saying "keep moving" or "in and out".

Show me the rule that says you can.

Do you still call 3 seconds as soon as that count is up, even though a player may have heard your warning and is already in the process of leaving the lane?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

scrapper - I was not accusing you personally - I didn't say I read those messages from you so I wasn't going down that road.

Awesome. Sometimes the "tone" of a post is hard to read. I appreciate that this discussion has been level-headed for the most part.

You're going to call the game the way you call the game - that does not make it right nor wrong. However - please don't say that I am mistaken.

Ok, you're. . . slightly less than correct. . . marginally deviating from acceptable. . . sub-optimal? Joking!! I'm just kidding around. You're obviously correct that we view this differently. Just like I can't imagine somebody seeing a player out of bounds and intentionally ignoring it, I can't imagine somebody waving off a free throw for having 1/8 inch of rubber on the free throw line. But if you are being rewarded for calling it, then it would be dumb for you to stop doing it.

Point is - toe on the line is a violation

I agree that it's a violation. I disagree that that is the point.

tell that to the team and coach that lost because you kicked a rule - I'll bet they don't feel the same as you do.

Honestly, I bet they do feel the same if you give them some time to cool off and think about it. "Coach, it didn't seem like such a big deal when we let it go on your end of the court." Nobody wants to win a game because a ref calls a microscopic violation.

I have gotten games both HS Var and JUCO because I had the courage to make that call.

Then, as I said, you'd be stupid to stop doing it.

Sometimes it's good to air out differences - this being one of those times.

Happy and safe holidays

True enough. Happy holiday to you and your family, too.