Penalty for unauthorized leaving floor

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Are you saying that you would wave off the free throw in a varsity game because the shooter's toe touched the line? Are you honestly saying that?

Oh, Nevaaaaadaaaaaaa. . . .

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

IOW, I agree with Scrapper on this. Both on how to call it and how it can't really be described. Maybe it has something to do with "what everyone else sees" and the philosophy of "it's better to miss something that did happen than to call something that didn't". For example, "everyone" can see the foot on the line. But, it's judgment as to whether that was a good dribble or palming. People count at different rates.

Sounds just about right to me.

I do disagree with Skippy on some violations, but that's just a minor(and personal) disagreement. Some violations you should always call imo. Some violations you might call sometimes.

My personal "might call" list includes:
-player going OOB
- 3 seconds
- 10 seconds on FT
-"fisted" ball
- closely guarded when defender is at the 6' limit and not applying pressure
-swinging elbows when no opponent is close

Note that I said "might" call. I can't make a hard and fast rule, to be quite honest. Might bang it immediately. Sometimes though a warning just feels....right.

Wishy-washy? Probably. Shrug.....

JMO.....

[mj]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Sounds just about right to me.

I do disagree with Skippy on some violations, but that's just a minor(and personal) disagreement. Some violations you should always call imo. Some violations you might call sometimes.

My personal "might call" list includes:
-player going OOB
- 3 seconds
- 10 seconds on FT
-"fisted" ball
- closely guarded when defender is at the 6' limit and not applying pressure
-swinging elbows when no opponent is close

Note that I said "might" call. I can't make a hard and fast rule, to be quite honest. Might bang it immediately. Sometimes though a warning just feels....right.

Wishy-washy? Probably. Shrug.....

JMO.....

I agree with the above list and will add one more (mostly seen in girl's games for some reason)...during a free throw, the person in the first lane space has their heel in the air above the block.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

One is a big deal and the other is not. :shrug:

Are you saying that you would wave off the free throw in a varsity game because the shooter's toe touched the line? Are you honestly saying that?

I believe in making calls that can be validated on video. If the player has a foot on the FT line, they have violated.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I believe in making calls that can be validated on video. If the player has a foot on the FT line, they have violated.

And if the video shows a player in the lane for 3 seconds, while the ball is outside, that's a violation too, I take it? Or if the video shows a free thrower taking more than 10 seconds?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Or, ask yourself, "Is it a game interrupter?"

I think I'm more concerned with, "Is it a career interrupter?"

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And if the video shows a player in the lane for 3 seconds, while the ball is outside, that's a violation too, I take it? Or if the video shows a free thrower taking more than 10 seconds?

Yeah, JR, I do my best to properly penalize those as well.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Yeah, JR, I do my best to properly penalize those as well.

Calls 3 seconds every time an offensive player is illegally in the lane ...Got it.

Calls a violation on a FT shooter as soon as the count hits 11 seconds.....Got it.

Every single time! Got it.

OK. Thanks for the clarification.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I believe in making calls that can be validated on video. If the player has a foot on the FT line, they have violated.

So do I, believe me. No camera from the top of the bleachers is going to see a TOE on the free throw line. We've never been talking about the foot stepping across the line. Just the toe, as he gets the ball above his head.

No way are you calling that in a varsity game or above. I just don't believe it.

For the record, if he steps with his foot on or over the line, I'll call that too. But I'm not calling one toe on the line and I honestly can't believe that you would either.

[chartrusepengui]

I think I'm more concerned with, "Is it a career interrupter?"

If you are talking about an assignor not getting you games because you called a violation when toe was on FT line as being a career interrupter - you have a serious delima.

Should you officiate with integrity - or officiate to please an assignor? The problem in our area is that the school's AD is sometimes the assignor. In other districts - they have conference commissioners which are basically assignors - and in two districts where I work they are staff members of a school. I can't worry about what they want - I have to call what I see regardless of the result or I seriously lack in integrity. Some calls require more judgement - but stepping on a line is pretty obvious and you can't intentionally kick a call like that and still maintain your integrity. I think in the end the assignors with integrity will think more highly of you as an official if you make these calls instead of looking the other way. You need to be consistent. Just my opinion.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

If you are talking about an assignor not getting you games because you called a violation when toe was on FT line as being a career interrupter - you have a serious delima.

Should you officiate with integrity - or officiate to please an assignor? The problem in our area is that the school's AD is sometimes the assignor. In other districts - they have conference commissioners which are basically assignors - and in two districts where I work they are staff members of a school. I can't worry about what they want - I have to call what I see regardless of the result or I seriously lack in integrity. Some calls require more judgement - but stepping on a line is pretty obvious and you can't intentionally kick a call like that and still maintain your integrity. I think in the end the assignors with integrity will think more highly of you as an official if you make these calls instead of looking the other way. You need to be consistent. Just my opinion.

Doesn't it depend on what we're calling a "toe"? If you mean an 1/8th inch of shoe rubber, I probably won't call that unless my partner has already called it once or twice. If you mean enough shoe that my actual whole big toe is on the line, then yea, it's gotta be called no matter what.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

I think in the end the assignors with integrity will think more highly of you as an official if you make these calls instead of looking the other way.

I know quite a few assignors. Please be assured that if they have an official that calls some violations(i.e. 3 seconds, 10 seconds for FT's, etc.) strictly by the rules, that official's career is not going anywhere but in the dumper. Integrity has nothing to do with it either.

As Bob Jenkins said, the concept is hard to explain. Be that as it may, it is still well understood.

[chartrusepengui]

So I guess you don't need any integrity to be an official - just cya in all situations?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

So I guess you don't need any integrity to be an official - just cya in all situations?

I'm not going to engage in questioning of anyone's integrity. You can have that job. But what I will say is that NOT calling what doesn't matter does NOT lower one's integrity.

One toe on the free throw line does NOT matter. If you think it does, you're simply mistaken.

[chartrusepengui]

I disagree - I'm not . I read many sanctamonious messages about how sacred "certain" rules are and if someone does not call them a certain way - they are misinformed, 2nd rate officials. I was not aware that the Fed, NCAA or any other body says that you should only call the rules that you want to call, or that you are to interpret rules your own way. In fact, I have read many posts that state; "don't read so much into this rule" etc

Don't call the rules if you don't want to but please don't tell me I am mistaken. I am not trying to inflame anyone - but there seems to be too much finger pointing and name calling. A wise man once said, "Opinions are like a$$holes - everyone has one and they all stink!"