ouch...talk about losing your cool...

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Say what?

By rule, they were supposed to issue flagrant technical fouls to everybody that left the bench, whether they participated in the fight or not. No matter, what, the 5 players and assistant coach were ejected for those flagrant technical fouls. The difference is in the penalties for the technical fouls for participants and non-participants. For non-participants, it's a max of 2 free throws. For participants, it's 2 free throws for everybody that participates and doesn't match up with someone on the other team.

Rule 10-6PENALTY SUMMARY8(b) 1&2 on p.67.

Iow, that can't be the supposed "error".

You are correct, I meant to say that you don't SHOOT the techs for every non-participant, but you do issue the flagrant techs, sorry for the misstatement....so going back to OP, if the AD did in fact get a call from the R, if he admitted a mistake, that is the only mistake that I can think of, that they shot techs for every non-participant...

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I knocked on wood (my head for those who want to know) before I started this post and I will knock on wood as soon as I hit the submit button when I finish this post.

1) The A.D.'s statement were self-serving and I do not believe a word he said about his conversation with the "head official" later that evening.

2) I have been watching basketball games for over 45 years and it is my belief that no bench personnel leaves the bench just to watch a fight. They leave the bench to join the fight.

3) This is my 37th year as a basketball official and only once (boys' H.S. varsity, 1983-84 season) have I had bench personnel leave the bench to join the fight which actually started when fans from both schools entered the court to start fighting with the players immediately after I had called an intentional foul on H1 (H = home team). The foul occured with only about 20 seconds (I don't remember the exact amount left in the game, I don't feel like climbing up into the attic to find my game report) left in the game so my partner, who was the R, and I decided that the best thing to do was to declare the game over.

4) Based upon Item (3), you know why I am knocking on wood agains as soon as I hit the submit button.

MTD, Sr.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I knocked on wood (my head for those who want to know) before I started this post and I will knock on wood as soon as I hit the submit button when I finish this post.

1) The A.D.'s statement were self-serving and I do not believe a word he said about his conversation with the "head official" later that evening.

2) I have been watching basketball games for over 45 years and it is my belief that no bench personnel leaves the bench just to watch a fight. They leave the bench to join the fight.

3) This is my 37th year as a basketball official and only once (boys' H.S. varsity, 1983-84 season) have I had bench personnel leave the bench to join the fight which actually started when fans from both schools entered the court to start fighting with the players immediately after I had called an intentional foul on H1 (H = home team). The foul occured with only about 20 seconds (I don't remember the exact amount left in the game, I don't feel like climbing up into the attic to find my game report) left in the game so my partner, who was the R, and I decided that the best thing to do was to declare the game over.

4) Based upon Item (3), you know why I am knocking on wood agains as soon as I hit the submit button.

MTD, Sr.

While I agree with you on 2), the distinction that should be made IMO is that you don't penalize "intent", you penalize the act in this case. Regardless of why they leave the bench, if they somehow come to their senses between the time they leave the bench and reach the fracas, if they don't participate, then you can only penalize them for leaving the bench...either way they are gone, but it still matters in terms of adding up the FT's....

[kbilla]

This actually leads to an intersting question though, how do you define "participates"? If he pulls a teammate off of the pile did he participate? What if he pulls an opponent off? I realize at that point you are gonna have your hands full and honestly if someone put their hands on someone else, ESPECIALLY an opponent, I am probably going to charge them with participating, but how do you all define "participating"?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by kbilla

This actually leads to an intersting question though, how do you define "participates"? If he pulls a teammate off of the pile did he participate? What if he pulls an opponent off? I realize at that point you are gonna have your hands full and honestly if someone put their hands on someone else, ESPECIALLY an opponent, I am probably going to charge them with participating, but how do you all define "participating"?

Any kind of contact with an opponent.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Any kind of contact with an opponent.

Or, I'd add, attempting to contact an opponent.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by kbilla

While I agree with you on 2), the distinction that should be made IMO is that you don't penalize "intent", you penalize the act in this case. Regardless of why they leave the bench, if they somehow come to their senses between the time they leave the bench and reach the fracas, if they don't participate, then you can only penalize them for leaving the bench...either way they are gone, but it still matters in terms of adding up the FT's....

kbilla:

You are correct, you can't penalize intent in this case, but I have never seen a player or coach or other bench personnel, leave the bench and not participate. Why leave the bench, when you have a ring side seat to the fight in the first place. And as the father of two teenage boys, I know that they sometimes don't come to their sense until it is too late. Having said that, I can assure you that my two youngin's are well behaved when it comes to the nonsense that was the subject of the original post. NFHS Baseball Rules stipulate that anybody that leaves the dugout to join a fight on the field is ejected and OhioHSAA Rules stipulate a two game suspension at that level are played before a player can resume play. My older son two years ago incurred the wrath of the Toledo Start H.S. jr. varsity baseball coach because he was the only player that refused to leave the dugout to join a fight on the field. My son set him straight (and so did I later, because to describe this young punk, the coach I mean, as a horse's rear end would be an insult to the two horses that my wife and I have owned). The coach got mad at me because I had taught his son to be a good sportsman. LOL.

Mark, Jr., will take the OhioHSAA umpiring class this winter and the umpires who have umpired his games in the past can't wait for him to join their ranks because he is the only player in his games that has a level head out there. Just a chip off the old block. But I am really looking forward to Thursday of next week when Mark, Jr. and I officiate his first basketball game. We have a boys' jr. H.S. DH and I can't wait for him to carry his "old man" for two games.

MTD, Sr.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

kbilla:

But I am really looking forward to Thursday of next week when Mark, Jr. and I officiate his first basketball game. We have a boys' jr. H.S. DH and I can't wait for him to carry his "old man" for two games.

MTD, Sr.

Good for you Mark, my first son is only 9mos old and I already can't wait for the day when we get to work our first game together....my wife just shakes her head, but what does she know anyway

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

But I am really looking forward to Thursday of next week when Mark, Jr. and I officiate his first basketball game. We have a boys' jr. H.S. DH and I can't wait for him to carry his "old man" for two games.

MTD, Sr.

Maz'l Tov, Mark.

I can only begin to describe the exquisite pleasure I derive from working with any of my 3 sons who officiate. Hope your experience is memorable and enjoyable...

Be sure to let us know how it went, and if you owed him any refreshments afterwards!!!!!!

[refnrev]

But is the maximum number of shots 2 like Nevada said, or is it that incorrect?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by refnrev

But is the maximum number of shots 2 like Nevada said, or is it that incorrect?

Who knows?

We don't know whether the players and coach coming off the bench participated in the fight or not. That's the key to the number of FT's that are handed out. If they came off the bench and didn't participate, each player and the assistant coach would get a flagrant technical foul, but there would only be a maximum of 2 FT's shot. If the players and the assistant coach participated, then they all would still receive a flagrant technical foul, but the other team would now receive 2 FT's for each opponent that participated.

To know if the play was called correctly, you have to know exactly which players/coach participated in the fight(if any) and which didn't. we don't have that information.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Who knows?

We don't know whether the players and coach coming off the bench participated in the fight or not. That's the key to the number of FT's that are handed out. If they came off the bench and didn't participate, each player and the assistant coach would get a flagrant technical foul, but there would only be a maximum of 2 FT's shot. If the players and the assistant coach participated, then they all would still receive a flagrant technical foul, but the other team would now receive 2 FT's for each opponent that participated.

To know if the play was called correctly, you have to know exactly which players/coach participated in the fight(if any) and which didn't. we don't have that information.

I agree.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

From the AD: "DeRenzo pointed out that three ejections and three technical fouls is the most that can be dished out on one whistle, according to his interpretation of the PIAA basketball rules."

This is what happens when some coaches and ADs try to interpret the rules all by themselves.

The AD isn't necessarily wrong. Remember he is referring to a PIAA interp. We don't know exactly what that says. My state has a bench-clearing provision that immediately terminates the game. If three or more individuals leave a team bench, we're done. We are to assess all of the Ts, but not administer the FTs and then write the report. The PIAA could have something similar.

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Yea, could be. But from the way the story is worded, it seems possible that there's an alternate explanation. I know that here in Portland, the official that was on the game would NEVER be involved in that kind of phone call. But perhaps in PA things are different.

The same is true here, but it occurred to me that in an area where the games are assigned by the ADs and the officials have to contact those folks for games, not an association or office, then it would be logical for such a phone call to take place. Someone from PA will have to chime in and let us know how the assignments are handled in that area.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The same is true here, but it occurred to me that in an area where the games are assigned by the ADs and the officials have to contact those folks for games, not an association or office, then it would be logical for such a phone call to take place. Someone from PA will have to chime in and let us know how the assignments are handled in that area.

Good point.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I agree.

The AD isn't necessarily wrong. Remember he is referring to a PIAA interp. We don't know exactly what that says. My state has a bench-clearing provision that immediately terminates the game. If three or more individuals leave a team bench, we're done. We are to assess all of the Ts, but not administer the FTs and then write the report. The PIAA could have something similar.


The same is true here, but it occurred to me that in an area where the games are assigned by the ADs and the officials have to contact those folks for games, not an association or office, then it would be logical for such a phone call to take place. Someone from PA will have to chime in and let us know how the assignments are handled in that area.

Maybe he/she/they can clarify whether or not PA deviates from the NFHS on flagrant technicals during a bench-clearing fight as well.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Maybe he/she/they can clarify whether or not PA deviates from the NFHS on flagrant technicals during a bench-clearing fight as well.

They do. See post #9.

I remember a thread about that mess on this forum.