Is This Player Control?

[IdahoRef]

A1 is shooting one FT while B1 is behind him and not lined up. FT is missed and tapped around toward A1. B1 performs an athletic move, jumps up and over A1 without touching him, secures the ball with both hands in the air, then comes down and fouls A1 in an "over the back" kind of way.

Both teams were in the bonus.

I called a player-control foul and we administered the ball out of bounds. A1 coach was a little upset that his player did not get to shoot the 1 and 1. I explained that B1 had control and that it was a player-control foul and it was not a shooting foul.

The book in 4-12-1 says "A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds." Question: In the above situation is A1 "inbounds" or does he have to come down and touch the floor to be considered inbounds?

Question: Was this a player control foul?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by IdahoRef

A1 is shooting one FT while B1 is behind him and not lined up. FT is missed and tapped around toward A1. B1 performs an athletic move, jumps up and over A1 without touching him, secures the ball with both hands in the air, then comes down and fouls A1 in an "over the back" kind of way.

Both teams were in the bonus.

I called a player-control foul and we administered the ball out of bounds. A1 coach was a little upset that his player did not get to shoot the 1 and 1. I explained that B1 had control and that it was a player-control foul and it was not a shooting foul.

The book in 4-12-1 says "A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds." Question: In the above situation is A1 "inbounds" or does he have to come down and touch the floor to be considered inbounds?

Question: Was this a player control foul?

I thnk the recent interps on BC violation make it clear that B1 was in control, and this was a PC foul. (Not that I think they were really needed in this situation.)

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by IdahoRef

A1 is shooting one FT while B1 is behind him and not lined up. FT is missed and tapped around toward A1. B1 performs an athletic move, jumps up and over A1 without touching him, secures the ball with both hands in the air, then comes down and fouls A1 in an "over the back" kind of way.

Both teams were in the bonus.

I called a player-control foul and we administered the ball out of bounds. A1 coach was a little upset that his player did not get to shoot the 1 and 1. I explained that B1 had control and that it was a player-control foul and it was not a shooting foul.

The book in 4-12-1 says "A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds." Question: In the above situation is A1 "inbounds" or does he have to come down and touch the floor to be considered inbounds?

Question: Was this a player control foul?

I am a little confused by this situation. If B1 secured the ball and came down "over the back" of A1, how do you have a foul on B1? A1 had never obtained LGP (not facing B1)...tough to say without seeing the play, but I would think that I have nothing or a foul on A1 (probably nothing)?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by kbilla

I am a little confused by this situation. If B1 secured the ball and came down "over the back" of A1, how do you have a foul on B1? A1 had never obtained LGP (not facing B1)...tough to say without seeing the play, but I would think that I have nothing or a foul on A1 (probably nothing)?

You're overthinking the play big-time. It's a rebounding situation. LGP is neither applicable or relevant. Every player is entitled to have a legal spot on the floor. If you gain an illegal advantage by displacing that player from their spot, you've fouled them. It's no different than the player behind another player on a rebound pushing the player in front out his way. There's never LGP involved in 2 opponents going after a loose ball either. If one player gains an illegal advantage by shoving his opponent out of his way, he's committed a foul.

Sometimes a little knowledge can be dangerous.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by IdahoRef

Question: In the above situation is A1 "inbounds" or does he have to come down and touch the floor to be considered inbounds?

Remember "you are where you were till you get where you're going". Since he was inbounds before he jumped, he's considered inbounds unless and until he lands OOB. So, since he was holding a live ball inbounds, he was in player control and his team was in team control. Whether or not a foul should have been called, since B1 never moved, is another story.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You're overthinking the play big-time. It's a rebounding situation. LGP is neither applicable or relevant. Every player is entitled to have a legal spot on the floor. If you gain an illegal advantage by displacing that player from their spot, you've fouled them. It's no different than the player behind another player on a rebound pushing the player in front out his way. There's never LGP involved in 2 opponents going after a loose ball either. If one player gains an illegal advantage by shoving his opponent out of his way, he's committed a foul.

Sometimes a little knowledge can be dangerous.

I agree with you re: the loose ball situation, but in this case the official called a PC foul. I guess I viewed this the same way as a ball handler running into a player who was standing with their back to the ball handler, do you have a PC foul on that also?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by kbilla

I agree with you re: the loose ball situation, but in this case the official called a PC foul. I guess I viewed this the same way as a ball handler running into a player who was standing with their back to the ball handler, do you have a PC foul on that also?

Yes. If you beat one defender off the dribble and then run into the back of a second defender who's been standing there forever, what else could you possibly call?

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yes. If you beat one defender off the dribble and then run into the back of a second defender who's been standing there forever, what else could you possibly call?

i have a block. i don't believe i have ever called or seen called a PC foul when the defender has his back to the ballhandler...4-7-2-a "a player is moving with the ball is required to stop or change direction to avoid contact if a defensive player has obtained an LGP", doesn't say anything about having to avoid anyone who does not have LGP...then 4.23.2 defines LGP and includes that the "front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent"...

if the opponent has their back to the ball handler would you apply the same criteria as an opponent facing a ball handler to determine if you have a block/charge?

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yes. If you beat one defender off the dribble and then run into the back of a second defender who's been standing there forever, what else could you possibly call?

Case 10.6.9 discusses this further..

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yes. If you beat one defender off the dribble and then run into the back of a second defender who's been standing there forever, what else could you possibly call?

I agree with JR, I a player with control of the ball just runs over another player, its a Player Control Foul. The fact that the person has his or her back to the offensive player is irrelavent at this point.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

I agree with JR, I a player with control of the ball just runs over another player, its a Player Control Foul. The fact that the person has his or her back to the offensive player is irrelavent at this point.

How do you square that with the CB & RB references that I posted?

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by kbilla

How do you square that with the CB & RB references that I posted?

Those references talk about plays where the defender is TRYiING to guard or to stop the dribbler. When a player is trying to get his mommy's attention, or picking his nose, he's entitled to his spot on the floor. If he doesn't move, then the dribbler is completely responsible for contact, and if the dribbler displaces that defender, it's definitely PC.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Those references talk about plays where the defender is TRYiING to guard or to stop the dribbler. When a player is trying to get his mommy's attention, or picking his nose, he's entitled to his spot on the floor. If he doesn't move, then the dribbler is completely responsible for contact, and if the dribbler displaces that defender, it's definitely PC.

ok i will grant you this point, if the defensive player has NO idea that the dribbler is there and he runs him over i will give you that it would be a PC. much more often than not you are going to have the case where the defensive player knows they are there but refuses to move, thereby in a sense "attempting to guard or stop the dribbler". what if a defender saw a dribbler moving towards a spot and decided to run to that spot and stop with his/her back to the dribbler. if there is contact you have a pc foul? that seems to me to be completely counter to CB 10.6.9...

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by kbilla

ok i will grant you this point, if the defensive player has NO idea that the dribbler is there and he runs him over i will give you that it would be a PC. much more often than not you are going to have the case where the defensive player knows they are there but refuses to move, thereby in a sense "attempting to guard or stop the dribbler". what if a defender saw a dribbler moving towards a spot and decided to run to that spot and stop with his/her back to the dribbler. if there is contact you have a pc foul? that seems to me to be completely counter to CB 10.6.9...

If they get there first, it's PC foul. They're entitled to the spot. Period. Also, in block/charge, the LGP rules don't apply. Block/charge rules are spelled out in a different place.

(rummages to find books....) 10-6-2

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by kbilla

i have a block. i don't believe i have ever called or seen called a PC foul when the defender has his back to the ballhandler...4-7-2-a "a player is moving with the ball is required to stop or change direction to avoid contact if a defensive player has obtained an LGP", doesn't say anything about having to avoid anyone who does not have LGP...then 4.23.2 defines LGP and includes that the "front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent"...

if the opponent has their back to the ball handler would you apply the same criteria as an opponent facing a ball handler to determine if you have a block/charge?

If a player with the ball pushes off with with his arm, would you call a block on his opponent too using the same principles?

If two players go up for a rebound and the player behind pushes the opponent with inside position to get the ball , I take it that's a block in your world too?

Lah me.......

You're trying to apply guarding principles to non-guarding situations.