Obtaining/Establishing a legal guarding position.

[rockyroad]

Stupid and idiotic...hmmm, interesting. So you would rather have defensive players sliding over and setting up under the basket on every drive - thus taking away most penetration plays??? I think the NCAA Women's interpretation on this is probably the best one out there - it allows for good, solid defense but takes away the "Cheap" (my words, no one else's) PC fouls that take away from the game...just one person's opinion...

[Bart Tyson]

Its funny how people can knock the women's rules when these same people have never refereed a women's game. For those of us who have officiated women's, it is clear we like this rule.

[crew]

what is even more ironic is that mark d. is a nc2a womens official, supposedly.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Gentlemen, I am very familiar with the NCAA Women's rules. I only officiate a couple of women's game each year because of family obligations, but in 1974-75 I became the first male to officiate a women's college basketball game in the State of Florida. That is how long I have been involved in the women's game. I have many friends who still officiate women's basketball at the Div. I level (including two who also officiate in the WNBA and one who has officiated in the Olympics).

The NBA/WNBA rule that is used the NCAA women's game (without the semi-circle on the court) is just plain bad for the game. In the other thread I have listed the reasons why the NFHS/NCAA Men's rules are the correct way to handle this situation. The ball handler cannot drive anywhere he/she pleases without immunity. A ball handler who drives to the basket must be able to complete his drive without making illegal contact with any defensive player who has a legal position on the court. I think that everybody will agree that a layup is a higher percentage shot for the ball handler, than having to stop short and take a jump shot. That is the reason for allowing a defensive player to take a legal position anywhere on the court, even if it is under the basket. The ball handler must make a decision, drive to the hoop for the high percentage layup and risk making illegal contact with a defender who has a legal position on the court or stop short and shoot a lower percentage shot and not risk making illegal contact with a defender who has a legal position on the court. This is the reasoning for the way that the rules are written for NFHS/NCAA Men's and how the NCAA Women's rules use to be.

It is not a cheap foul when B1 "slides" over and takes a legal position on the court before A1 becomes an airborne player with the ball and forces A1 to make the decision that I listed above.

Personally, this is not a difficult call to make. The problem is that players, coaches, some assigners, and fans do not know the rule or the basis for the rule. The coaches complain, and in some states where coaches decide who does and does not officiate, dictate how the game is going to be called.

Officials have to know the rules and the basis for why a rule is written in such a manner. And then enforce the rule according to these guidelines and not the way coaches, media talking heads, and other laymen think the game should be officiated.

[rockyroad]

Wow...thanks for the sermon...as someone who also knows (and works with) many different D-I officials, and knows several WNBA officials, and blah, blah, blah, I must remind you that the NFHS/NCAA Men's interpretation is the way to call that play when working NFHS or NCAA Men's games...I certainly hope that you do not call it that way in NCAA Women's games, because that IS NOT the rule for NCAA Women's games...when I work a HS game, I will call it according to the Fed rules, but when I work a Women's NCAA game, I will call it according to their rules - hopefully you are capable of doing the same...

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by rockyroad
Wow...thanks for the sermon...as someone who also knows (and works with) many different D-I officials, and knows several WNBA officials, and blah, blah, blah, I must remind you that the NFHS/NCAA Men's interpretation is the way to call that play when working NFHS or NCAA Men's games...I certainly hope that you do not call it that way in NCAA Women's games, because that IS NOT the rule for NCAA Women's games...when I work a HS game, I will call it according to the Fed rules, but when I work a Women's NCAA game, I will call it according to their rules - hopefully you are capable of doing the same...

I never (please forgive me J. Dallas Shirley) said I did not officiate a women's game according to the rules. But I do believer in aggressively pointing out how idiotic the rule on the NCAA Women's side is. It is idiotic and illogical and always (please forgive me J. Dallas Shirley) will be illogical and idiotic.

[crew]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

It is idiotic and illogical and always (please forgive me J. Dallas Shirley) will be illogical and idiotic. [/B]

that could be why you do not work many of these games anymore. just a thought.

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by crew

that could be why you do not work many of these games anymore. just a thought. [/B]

Oooooohhhhhh, kinda nasty aren't we?

Well if crew can be nasty so can I...well actually I am going to borrow a quote from a certain Div. 1 Men's Coach..."I wouldn't watch women's basketball if they played naked."
There I said it...and trust me...I'm not the only one who feels that way.
Sorry, I don't want to Ref any level of any girls games. They suck!! I commend all you referees who do it, because it has to be UGLY!! Most couch potatoes out there feel they can go out and star on a WNBA team because they look so slow. Yeah, they probably couldn't, but I bet more than a few H.S. boys could.
I know what I am saying is not politically correct...and I even bet a lot of you agree with me. But, I also know there is a slim chance for you that agree with me to defend me as I am about to get hammered.

Peace, Love and Boys basketball...
RookieDude

[crew]

R.D.
i do not enjoy womens basketball either. though i do the games i am assigned 100%, and as a stage to work on my mechanics and cosmetic flaws.

[Hawks Coach]

Mark T.D
I can fully appreciate that NFHS/NCAA men hava a different rule than NCAA women/WNBA/NBA. But there are a lot of good basketball minds at all of these levels and they have determined to draw different conclusions. Those that deal with the highest level men's and women's games are clear obtuse, and those that deal with HS boys and below clearly have a better sense of what is and is not good basketball in your world.

In my world, I fully understand your argument and realize that this argument (and maybe some others) are why certain organizations allow a charging call under the basket. Other organizations believe that to play defense, you should defend something other than a landing zone - like a shooter, dribbler, or passer that still has the ball in their possession. That is a difference in philosophy regarding the proper way to play defense, and neither is necessarily more right than the other (except in your world).

When you see how high the pro players get off the floor and how quickly the plays develop at that level, it makes sense in the NBA to discourage any attempt to draw a charge directly under the basket. It is too easy to hurt someone. Don't forget, for every charge there will probably be two blocks by players who try to draw the charge and arrive late. Those blocks would not occur if the defensive player did not think they had a chance to draw a charge directly nder the basket. So each of those blocks that occur directly under the basket results in a foul on the defense and a potentially dangerous contact on the offensive player who has a right to be where they are. By allowing charging calls under the basket, we risk offensive injury simply for the shaky principle that a defender must be allowed to attempt to defend a landing spot.

Many leagues believe that this simply does not make sense, and many of us happen to agree. I really doubt that all of us are the idiots you would make us out to be - we just have a different sense of what the appropriate boundaries should be. It makes as much sense to call this stupid as it would to label people stupid for having different three-point line distances. We can argue about what the right distance should be without categorizing others who think differently as idiots - especially when there are a lot of them and they give these issues serious consideration.

My only surprise is that the college women moved to change this before men, who are above the rim and much more exposed to danger. I am waiting for the men to adopt this change.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I can tell you why the women changed but I just got home from officiating and I really do not feel like getting on my soap box tonight.

As far as officiating women's games I have been cutting down my schedule for the last couple of years because our children are getting older.

[rockyroad]

Very well said, Hawks Coach...hey, do you talk to the refs that logically and sanely DURING your games also????