Officials as players

[justacoach]

My 2 sons, 14 and 16, play for their HS JV and V teams. They are also state patched officials and still officiate in a highly competitive youth league. They are thoroughly grounded in the FED rules and their practical application.

As captains, they have the prerogative to speak to the officials at appropriate times during the course of the game.

They don't identify themselves as officials except by using the vernacular common to our profession.

What would be the proper approach when intelligently asking officials about blatantly kicked calls or obvious mis-applications of the rules?

I have instilled my philosophy in them but am seeking your opinions

How many of you would even give them the time of day?

As usual, all meaningful responses appreciated

[Nevadaref]

I would be willing to listen to them and if something could be fixed due to something that they pointed out, I would try to do so.
However, most calls that are "blatantly kicked" aren't fixable situations, they are just bad calls that have to be accepted as part of the game.

I would advise them to only inquire about a rule interpretation or rule enforcement situation. I would tell them to roll their eyes and not say a word about any judgment call.

[SMEngmann]

Your sons should concentrate on being players when they are playing. As a player, you can't control the decisions that officials make, regardless of how long you've been reffing or how knowledgable you are. It's hard enough to focus on playing the game let alone to referee while playing. Trying to gain some sort of an edge on the referees at that level will detract from the level of focus needed on playing.

Lastly, if your sons are officiating, they should know that they have different angles on plays than the referees and know that we will miss some plays. The best thing they could do as captains is to keep their teammates under control and focused on the game rather than the officiating. Anytime a player or a team becomes fixated or distracted by the officiating, or other factors beyond their control, it usually leads to negative results for them.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

Your sons should concentrate on being players when they are playing. As a player, you can't control the decisions that officials make, regardless of how long you've been reffing or how knowledgable you are. It's hard enough to focus on playing the game let alone to referee while playing. Trying to gain some sort of an edge on the referees at that level will detract from the level of focus needed on playing.

Lastly, if your sons are officiating, they should know that they have different angles on plays than the referees and know that we will miss some plays. The best thing they could do as captains is to keep their teammates under control and focused on the game rather than the officiating. Anytime a player or a team becomes fixated or distracted by the officiating, or other factors beyond their control, it usually leads to negative results for them.

Excellent advice imo.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I would advise them to only inquire about a rule interpretation or rule enforcement situation. I would tell them to roll their eyes and not say a word about any judgment call.

And if they rolled their eyes at me, they sureashell wouldn't be getting any answers from me later on re: rules interpretations/enforcement either. And if they asked why they weren't gonna get an answer, they'd hear "Why do you want an answer? So that you can roll your eyes again and show everybody in the gym what a doofus I am?"

Great advice, Nevada. Advise players to openly show their disgust at an official's call. Heckuva idea.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And if they rolled their eyes at me, they sureashell wouldn't be getting any answers from me later on re: rules interpretations/enforcement either. And if they asked why they weren't gonna get an answer, they'd hear "Why do you want an answer? So that you can roll your eyes again and show everybody in the gym what a doofus I am?"

Great advice, Nevada. Advise players to openly show their disgust at an official's call. Heckuva idea.

Human emotion is heavily involved in contests and if the method used to avoid speaking to officials about judgments that are very different from the norm, then I say go for it. The captain in this case is then doing the proper thing: avoiding a discussion about judgment while still venting his emotion.

If an official can't handle a V player rolling his eyes, maybe he should be officiate tidleywinks.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Human emotion is heavily involved in contests and if the method used to avoid speaking to officials about judgments that are very different from the norm, then I say go for it. The captain in this case is then doing the proper thing: avoiding a discussion about judgment while still venting his emotion.

If an official can't handle a V player rolling his eyes, maybe he should be officiate tidleywinks.

Oh? Do you let 'em jump up and down as long as they don't say anything? Throw their arms up in the air? Smack walls? Kick chairs? Is that all OK as long as they're not saying anything but just "venting their emotions"?

Hey, if you want to let the l'il sh!ts make you look like a schvantz, be my guest. I'm not, and I never have been, into letting ballplayers make me look like an idiot.

Note that I didn't say that you should nail them with a "T". I said that you show them the same respect that they showed you. Which is none!

[ChrisSportsFan]

I think your Sons should remember the tone they prefer to have someone come to them with if they need to approach an official.
I do not advise them asking about a judgment call. However, I have no problem with them telling me something like: "could you watch their screens? I'm not sure they are staying set" or "my post player said #54 is holding his jersey during post play, could you please take a look at it?"
Others have also stated that if he is spending any energy worrying about the officials, he is not going to be the player his team needs him to be.

My Son has also started officiating and this is the exact advice I gave him. I believe being an official has helped him be a better player and vis-a-versa.

[JugglingReferee]

To answer your specific questions...

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Oh? Do you let 'em jump up and down as long as they don't say anything? Throw their arms up in the air? Smack walls? Kick chairs? Is that all OK as long as they're not saying anything but just "venting their emotions"?

No. No. No. No.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Hey, if you want to let the l'il sh!ts make you look like a schvantz, be my guest. I'm not, and I never have been, into letting ballplayers make me look like an idiot.

Note that I didn't say that you should nail them with a "T". I said that you show them the same respect that they showed you. Which is none!

There's a far cry between a player rolling their eyes, which is highly likely that few people will see compared to that player who goes to the endline and smacking the wall in a high school gym. If you feel that the rolling of the eyes should be addressed, then a quick conversation with him/her or their coach has always worked for me.

As for people talking to me, I don't care if I've previously T'd them up or used a preventative officiating technique: if they ask in a polite and respectful manner, they get my attention. That's how do I my job: with integrity.

Edit: or, not of.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

If you feel that the rolling of the eyes should be addressed, then a quick conversation with him/her or their coach has always worked for me.

Um, yeah, I think that I already said that the eye-rolling should be addressed. And I've said that personally I'd address it too.

But, you're now saying that a quick conversation with the player/coach has already worked for you. That's kinda confusing since you've also already gone on the record as also saying that a player rolling his eyes is doing the proper thing and that anybody that can't handle a player doing that that should be doing tiddleywinks. Soooooo, that's kinda confusing to me. Are you saying that you recommend that others should leave it alone but you'd personally address it(and have already done so)? Or that you should be doing tiddleywinks because you have addressed eye-rolling in the past?

Pick a side, please.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Hey, if you want to let the l'il sh!ts make you look like a schvantz, be my guest.

Wow! A Yiddish reference. I'm impressed!

[26 Year Gap]

A son of an retired official around here got into the habit of asking way too many questions about 'What happened?'. Unless they have striped shirts on, they need to focus on playing.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Wow! A Yiddish reference. I'm impressed!

Yep. One of the 1,029 Yiddish terms for the male anatomy. Now that's impressive.

[rainmaker]

In response to the OP, I'd say tell the players to not talk to the officials. Officials that can handle it won't be making many obviously kicked calls, and officials who are a little iffy in their calling may not have the kind of attitude that would adjust for being corrected by a player (Speaking as an official that can be somewhat iffy in my calling). They need to focus on talking to their teammates about following the rules and using their rules knowledge as an advantage -- a legal advantage! And on learning to respect appropriate authority, and accepted what comes from the officials.

[CJRef]

In my six years of working JV/Varsity I think I have talked to a designated captain only once or twice. I will listen to any player that addresses me respectfully and has a concern that they want me to pay more attention to. I don't think that I would ever speak with any player (captains included) about a kicked call or "mis-application" unless it is something we corrected or it was a confusing situation. And at that point, I think I would take the conversation to the coach.

It's good that they don't identify themselves as officials. I would stop listening to them even faster than when a coach says "Well I'm an official too and....". I guess if anything, I would say that their "knowledge" would best be used to educate their teammates and probably even the coach rather than engage the officials working their games.