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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 03, 2007, 03:17pm
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Continue the count?

Since quizzes and questions are abounding today, I will add this one.

A1 is being closely guarded by B1. The ref begins his 5 second count.

At the count of 3, B1 swipes at the ball and knocks it up in the air where:

A) the ball bounces and A1 catches the ball after one bounce;
B) A1 catches the ball out of the air without moving the pivot foot.

The ref continues the 5 second closely guarded count in both cases.

If the ref correct?

This happened in a girls varsity game on Saturday I worked.
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 03, 2007, 03:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ref in PA
Since quizzes and questions are abounding today, I will add this one.

A1 is being closely guarded by B1. The ref begins his 5 second count.

At the count of 3, B1 swipes at the ball and knocks it up in the air where:

A) the ball bounces and A1 catches the ball after one bounce;
B) A1 catches the ball out of the air without moving the pivot foot.

The ref continues the 5 second closely guarded count in both cases.

If the ref correct?

This happened in a girls varsity game on Saturday I worked.
I'm viewing A as an interrupted dribble, therefore no player control and the count would stop.

B is more difficult...but if what I'm envisioning in my head is correct, I'm probably also viewing it as a loss of PC, but I would listen to (and will in the remainder of this thread) a case for not.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 03, 2007, 03:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ref in PA
Since quizzes and questions are abounding today, I will add this one.

A1 is being closely guarded by B1. The ref begins his 5 second count.

At the count of 3, B1 swipes at the ball and knocks it up in the air where:

A) the ball bounces and A1 catches the ball after one bounce;
B) A1 catches the ball out of the air without moving the pivot foot.

The ref continues the 5 second closely guarded count in both cases.

If the ref correct?

This happened in a girls varsity game on Saturday I worked.
I'm not sure if this would be an interrupted dribble, but since the player no longer has control of the ball once the defender swipes at it and knocks it in the air, the dribbler no longer has player control, so I'd be inclined to stop the count.

I wait to see what the referees here have too say.
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 03, 2007, 03:28pm
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[QUOTE=Ref in PA]Since quizzes and questions are abounding today, I will add this one.

A1 is being closely guarded by B1. The ref begins his 5 second count.

At the count of 3, B1 swipes at the ball and knocks it up in the air where:

A) the ball bounces and A1 catches the ball after one bounce; NO

B) A1 catches the ball out of the air without moving the pivot foot. NO

A player is in control only when the player is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 03, 2007, 03:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ref in PA
Since quizzes and questions are abounding today, I will add this one.

A1 is being closely guarded by B1. The ref begins his 5 second count.

At the count of 3, B1 swipes at the ball and knocks it up in the air where:

A) the ball bounces and A1 catches the ball after one bounce;
B) A1 catches the ball out of the air without moving the pivot foot.

The ref continues the 5 second closely guarded count in both cases.

If the ref correct?

This happened in a girls varsity game on Saturday I worked.
It goes like this...

you could have no more then 3 counts per player posetion for closely guarded.

1. player catches ball count begins..
2. player begins dribble that count stops and new count begins with other hand.
3. Player stops dribble 2nd count stops and new count begins with other hand.

of course there must be a closely guarded situation the entire time.

... So what I'm trying to say is. NO.. the ref blew the call. It should have been a new count when the dribble ended.
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Old Mon Dec 03, 2007, 03:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ref in PA
Since quizzes and questions are abounding today, I will add this one.

A1 is being closely guarded by B1. The ref begins his 5 second count.

At the count of 3, B1 swipes at the ball and knocks it up in the air where:

A) the ball bounces and A1 catches the ball after one bounce;
B) A1 catches the ball out of the air without moving the pivot foot.

The ref continues the 5 second closely guarded count in both cases.

If the ref correct?

This happened in a girls varsity game on Saturday I worked.
The other question is how are you sure that the official continued the count - did they call a 5-second violation? I have seen some officials who don't switch hands when they pick up a new count, they just pause for a count and keep counting with the same hand...personally I switch hands every time I start a new count so there is no question...not sure what the "correct" mechanic is on this, anyone?
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Old Mon Dec 03, 2007, 03:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbilla
The other question is how are you sure that the official continued the count - did they call a 5-second violation? I have seen some officials who don't switch hands when they pick up a new count, they just pause for a count and keep counting with the same hand...personally I switch hands every time I start a new count so there is no question...not sure what the "correct" mechanic is on this, anyone?
You are correct according to the IHSA rules official at the IAACO clinic that I attended.
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Old Mon Dec 03, 2007, 03:55pm
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The correct mechanic according to KSHSAA and they SAY it came from FED, is to switch hands with each separate count. if you think about it, it is the same way you do it inbounding a dead ball. you hand the ball, with say your left hand in the air, and count the throw-in with your right hand, you the chop the clock with the left, and go into a count with your left hand
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 03, 2007, 10:07pm
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The correct NFHS mechanic is to switch hands when starting a new count. There was a POE about this back in 2004-05.

1D. Counting mechanics. Emphasis should be placed on the official to begin a visible count when the six-foot distance is established. The official must switch arms when going directly from one counting situation to another.

As for the rule on closely guarded, others have already correctly written that it only applies while a player is holding or dribbling the ball in the frontcourt. In both situations supplied the player is doing neither once the opponent bats the ball into the air. So the count must cease.
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Old Tue Dec 04, 2007, 08:48am
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In the actual play of the game, the ref with the count did not start over. Fortunately the HC called a time out about the same time the ref I was working with completed his 5 second count. We went with the time out. It made a good discussion after the game and I thought it could be discussed here. We worked a three man crew on the game. The other partner also told our partner the 5 second count should have been restarted as player control was momentarily lost due to the bat of the ball by B1.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 04, 2007, 07:00pm
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Screen??

Do we continue the count if the dribbler goes around a screening teammate, so that the screener is between the dribbler and the defender, even if the defender stays within six feet?

IAABO refresher exam question a few years ago said we stop the count. I still can't find any citations to support this? Can any of you?
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 04, 2007, 08:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
Do we continue the count if the dribbler goes around a screening teammate, so that the screener is between the dribbler and the defender, even if the defender stays within six feet?

IAABO refresher exam question a few years ago said we stop the count. I still can't find any citations to support this? Can any of you?
Check out case book play 9.10.1SitD. In the ruling, they use the statement "Preventing opponents to get to the ball by using screening teammates becomes a violation in five seconds if the opponents are attempting to gain control." That's good enough for me. I wouldn't stop a 5-second count as long as the defending player stays within six feet of the ball.
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Old Tue Dec 04, 2007, 08:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
Do we continue the count if the dribbler goes around a screening teammate, so that the screener is between the dribbler and the defender, even if the defender stays within six feet?

IAABO refresher exam question a few years ago said we stop the count. I still can't find any citations to support this? Can any of you?
Yes, the count goes on.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 05, 2007, 02:11am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
Do we continue the count if the dribbler goes around a screening teammate, so that the screener is between the dribbler and the defender, even if the defender stays within six feet?

IAABO refresher exam question a few years ago said we stop the count. I still can't find any citations to support this? Can any of you?
Per NFHS (as Jurassic stated), 9.9.1.D says the count continues.

Interestingly, per NCAA, the count ceases, as a closely guarded situation does not exist anymore. (NCAA 4-13-4)
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