Head Coache's Rule

[truerookie]

10-5-1 By state association adoption, the head coach may be off the bench in front of his/her seat within the confines of the designated coaching box, as in 1-13-2 , for the purpose of coaching his/her team.

I went to observed a varsity tournament at a local high school. They have an annual tournament for their conference. Well, a coach of the opposing team was off the bench every time the other team went to shoot free-throws below the free throw line (first half). I found this odd because if a player was in the same location and he/she is not in the lane spaces or behind the arc it is a violation (disconcertion).

So, after the game I asked the officials why they allowed the coach to be in that location in the first half. The answer they gave me pissed me off. As long as, the coach is coaching and not bothering them directly they did not have a problem with it.

So, I brought up the disconcetion situation and they stated I was being an OOO and that I would have a hard time advancing worrying about the location of a coach when he/she is just coaching.


Coaches do rate officials in Missouri.

Thoughts?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by truerookie

10-5-1 By state association adoption, the head coach may be off the bench in front of his/her seat within the confines of the designated coaching box, as in 1-13-2 , for the purpose of coaching his/her team.

I went to observed a varsity tournament at a local high school. They have an annual tournament for their conference. Well, a coach of the opposing team was off the bench every time the other team went to shoot free-throws below the free throw line (first half). I found this odd because if a player was in the same location and he/she is not in the lane spaces or behind the arc it is a violation (disconcertion).

So, after the game I asked the officials why they allowed the coach to be in that location in the first half. The answer they gave me pissed me off. As long as, the coach is coaching and not bothering them directly they did not have a problem with it.

So, I brought up the disconcetion situation and they stated I was being an OOO and that I would have a hard time advancing worrying about the location of a coach when he/she is just coaching.


Coaches do rate officials in Missouri.

Thoughts?

Listen to the other officials on this one. Just standing in the coach's box isn't going to be disconcertion. And, if a player is there (well, on the court), then it is a violation, but it's still not disconcertion.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Listen to the other officials on this one. Just standing in the coach's box isn't going to be disconcertion. And, if a player is there (well, on the court), then it is a violation, but it's still not disconcertion.

Bob, I got that the problem is the coach is completely out of the box.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by truerookie

10-5-1 By state association adoption, the head coach may be off the bench in front of his/her seat within the confines of the designated coaching box, as in 1-13-2 , for the purpose of coaching his/her team.

I went to observed a varsity tournament at a local high school. They have an annual tournament for their conference. Well, a coach of the opposing team was off the bench every time the other team went to shoot free-throws below the free throw line (first half). I found this odd because if a player was in the same location and he/she is not in the lane spaces or behind the arc it is a violation (disconcertion).

So, after the game I asked the officials why they allowed the coach to be in that location in the first half. The answer they gave me pissed me off. As long as, the coach is coaching and not bothering them directly they did not have a problem with it.

So, I brought up the disconcetion situation and they stated I was being an OOO and that I would have a hard time advancing worrying about the location of a coach when he/she is just coaching.


Coaches do rate officials in Missouri.


Thoughts?

You have just realized one of the biggest dilemas that officials face, especially when they are rated by coaches (which they are in IL as well). To me the bottom line is that a coach out of the box, then 1) If they are out and yelling at me and/or my partners it is a no brainer or 2) if they are coaching they are gaining an unfair advantage if the opposing coach is following the rules. That being said, I am not "looking" over there, but if I see a coach out of the box once, I might ignore it. If I see them out of the box again I will probably warn them. After that if you have warned them, you cannot warn them again or you lose all credibility, you have to follow through with the tech. That being said there is a difference between "being out of the box" and taking a step out for a second and then returning, you really have to use judgement in this area. As far as the comments from those officials, to me that is a crock...you may get a bad rating from a coach, but if this coach is one who would give you a bad rating based on you enforcing this rule, then they probably would have found something else to nail you on anyway...and I have never had an assignor give any negative feedback for issuing a tech....

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by kbilla

You have just realized one of the biggest dilemas that officials face, especially when they are rated by coaches (which they are in IL as well).

Coach’s ratings in Illinois are not even 1/8 of the Power rating (the percentile is combined with Certified officials). So I would hope that anyone from Illinois is not worried about what a coach might rate you. Also the ratings only apply to varsity contests of a particular gender. Ratings do not apply at lower level games and do not mean because you have higher ratings than other officials you will get post season assignments. So if an issue like this needs to be addressed (which I do not see anything different needing to be done other than the officials way officials on the court handled it in this particular game) if ratings are your motivation, then you are not really aware of how our system works. In other states the coach's ratings might mean everything. Here in Illinois they do not.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Coach’s ratings in Illinois are not even 1/8 of the Power rating (the percentile is combined with Certified officials).

So what makes up the other approx 7/8? Is it stuff that all officials may score similarly on or get the maximum score from? If so, then isn't this last bit what separates the officials and makes the difference in the selections for postseason?

Of course, I don't know that specifics of Illinois and really don't want to, but the logic of this argument would apply to anywhere that used coaches' ratings as a part of the officials ranking. One must examine closely how much of an impact it has, even if it is only a small percentage. That small number could be the difference maker.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

So what makes up the other approx 7/8? Is it stuff that all officials may score similarly on or get the maximum score from? If so, then isn't this last bit what separates the officials and makes the difference in the selections for postseason?

Illinois has a 40 point rating system with only 5 points dedicated to ratings from coaches (combined with certified official's ratings). For example I bet in the past week I will receive more certified official's ratings than coach's ratings. Things like rankings, Top 15 percentile and test scores make up that rating. And if you are worried about one coach that you might not see again for 2 years then in my opinion you are worrying too much. I received about 70 ratings last year in Boy's basketball alone. The percentile involves a 2 year cycle so you can add about another 50 ratings the year before. And our rating system is based on the more ratings you get. For example if an official gets 5, number 1 ratings for the year is not going to be as well off as someone gets 50 number 3 ratings. So I want the coaches to rate me even if they give me what is called a bad rating.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Of course, I don't know that specifics of Illinois and really don't want to, but the logic of this argument would apply to anywhere that used coaches' ratings as a part of the officials ranking. One must examine closely how much of an impact it has, even if it is only a small percentage. That small number could be the difference maker.

It might not apply if coaches ratings are the only area that get you post season assignments. In some areas the coaches pick the officials for the post season assignments (Texas Football is an example of this). My point was our system is not as ridged based on what a coach rates you. Making calls because a coach might be upset (around here) should not even be a factor in how you call the game or interact with a coach.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

For those other than Rut who may wish to grasp my point consider the following:
8 items make up an officials rating each is equal.
1. test score
2. appearance/fitness
3. mechanics
4. camp attendence
5. years of service
6. number of games worked
7. turnbacks (the fewer the better here)
8. peer rating/coach rating

Now let's further say that each official gets a score from 1-5 with five being the highest in each category and that there is a cut-off for what is need to earn a five. Say 90%+ on the exam, yes or no did you attend the 3-man camp that the assn puts on, 10+ years with the assn, 50+ HS V games worked during the year, turnback zero games, etc. So a number of officials max out the first seven categories and have a score of 35. Now let's pick a number of officals that do this--25, but the assn can only send 15 to the regional and state games, so they are going to send the top 15 by rating score. It follows that how the officials score in the final category (peer/coach rating) is the determining factor.

[Big2Cat]

The real problem this year, as I see it in Illinois, is that we are supposed to T up the coach with no warning when he is out of the box. I have not seen it happen yet. Anyone else?

[Y2Koach]

There used to be a very annoying Varsity assistant coach in my league. Every time an opposing player would shoot a freethrow, he would go all the way down to the end of his bench (so he would be within peripheral sight of the FT shooter) and remind his players of everything they would possibly need to know at the the top of his lungs while waving his arms around pointing out different random things. "TOM, BOX OUT, BIG STEP, BOX OUT!! MIKE, YOU GOT SHOOTER!! FRED, WATCH YOUR FEET, DON'T CROSS THE LINE!!! BOX OUT BOX OUT BOX OUT!!!" If the player took 3 seconds to shoot it, he would yell and wave his arms for 3 seconds. If the shooter took 9 seconds to shoot, he would yell and wave for 9 seconds.

During a game a few years ago, the FT shooter actually bounced the ball back to the official and asked (loudly) "can you please tell him to shut the hell up?!?"

How would you guys handle this situation? warn the coach? T the coach? T the shooter? FT violation on the shooter? I just remember laughing and spilling nacho cheese on my scouting pad.

[flaref0812]

If I'm the R on a game, I'll give the coach(es) the benefit of the entire sideline from 28' to baseline with a provisio that the coach coach his/her player(s) and not use this area to instruct us how to officiate the game or be abusive. If he/she breaks my "rule" then he/she is relegated to either the 14' of coaching box (after the first and only warning) or T (if warranted). I know it's against both national and state policy.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Coach’s ratings in Illinois are not even 1/8 of the Power rating (the percentile is combined with Certified officials). So I would hope that anyone from Illinois is not worried about what a coach might rate you. Also the ratings only apply to varsity contests of a particular gender. Ratings do not apply at lower level games and do not mean because you have higher ratings than other officials you will get post season assignments. So if an issue like this needs to be addressed (which I do not see anything different needing to be done other than the officials way officials on the court handled it in this particular game) if ratings are your motivation, then you are not really aware of how our system works. In other states the coach's ratings might mean everything. Here in Illinois they do not.

Peace

I did not realize that it was that low, but I could care less regardless...you do what you have to do and let the rest shake out..

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by truerookie

I found this odd because if a player was in the same location and he/she is not in the lane spaces or behind the arc it is a violation (disconcertion).

So, after the game I asked the officials why they allowed the coach to be in that location in the first half. The answer they gave me pissed me off. As long as, the coach is coaching and not bothering them directly they did not have a problem with it.

First, yes, it would be a violation for a player to stand there, but it would not be disconcertion. They just can't stand there. It would be like lining up in the wrong lane space. They're just not allowed to be there.

Second, many officials take this attitude. "As long as they're coaching, I don't care where they stand". Unfortunately, it's our job to care about it. (In fact, it's a huge POE in college this year.) So after the first free throw, I would quietly walk to the coach and remind him to back off the court and find the box.

Third, I don't think you'd be OOO by enforcing it, but what would you do about it, other than what I mentioned above? You can't call it a free throw violation. All you could do is T up the coach. And I would not do that without talking to him first.

This is very easy to handle with a 3-person crew, because the Trail official is right there. But in 2-person (except in Texas, I guess), the Trail is opposite the table and it's harder to communicate with the coach quietly.

[truerookie]

[QUOTE=Scrapper1]First, yes, it would be a violation for a player to stand there, but it would not be disconcertion. They just can't stand there. It would be like lining up in the wrong lane space. They're just not allowed to be there.

Right violation!

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

First, yes, it would be a violation for a player to stand there, but it would not be disconcertion. They just can't stand there. It would be like lining up in the wrong lane space. They're just not allowed to be there.

Second, many officials take this attitude. "As long as they're coaching, I don't care where they stand". Unfortunately, it's our job to care about it. (In fact, it's a huge POE in college this year.) So after the first free throw, I would quietly walk to the coach and remind him to back off the court and find the box.

Third, I don't think you'd be OOO by enforcing it, but what would you do about it, other than what I mentioned above? You can't call it a free throw violation. All you could do is T up the coach. And I would not do that without talking to him first.

This is very easy to handle with a 3-person crew, because the Trail official is right there. But in 2-person (except in Texas, I guess), the Trail is opposite the table and it's harder to communicate with the coach quietly.

I'll agree mostly except to say it's not clear to me the coach was on the floor. Even if he was ti's not entirely so difficult to shoo the coach off the court in 2 man, just yell across "hey coach!" and indicate by gesture to move back. Or get your partner's attention and have him do it. And unless he was REALLY out on the floor and not just standing there minding his own business I would find it OOO to say anything about it.