The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 28, 2007, 12:10pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 1,342
Head Coache's Rule

10-5-1 By state association adoption, the head coach may be off the bench in front of his/her seat within the confines of the designated coaching box, as in 1-13-2 , for the purpose of coaching his/her team.

I went to observed a varsity tournament at a local high school. They have an annual tournament for their conference. Well, a coach of the opposing team was off the bench every time the other team went to shoot free-throws below the free throw line (first half). I found this odd because if a player was in the same location and he/she is not in the lane spaces or behind the arc it is a violation (disconcertion).

So, after the game I asked the officials why they allowed the coach to be in that location in the first half. The answer they gave me pissed me off. As long as, the coach is coaching and not bothering them directly they did not have a problem with it.

So, I brought up the disconcetion situation and they stated I was being an OOO and that I would have a hard time advancing worrying about the location of a coach when he/she is just coaching.


Coaches do rate officials in Missouri.

Thoughts?
__________________
truerookie
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 28, 2007, 12:13pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 17,369
Quote:
Originally Posted by truerookie
10-5-1 By state association adoption, the head coach may be off the bench in front of his/her seat within the confines of the designated coaching box, as in 1-13-2 , for the purpose of coaching his/her team.

I went to observed a varsity tournament at a local high school. They have an annual tournament for their conference. Well, a coach of the opposing team was off the bench every time the other team went to shoot free-throws below the free throw line (first half). I found this odd because if a player was in the same location and he/she is not in the lane spaces or behind the arc it is a violation (disconcertion).

So, after the game I asked the officials why they allowed the coach to be in that location in the first half. The answer they gave me pissed me off. As long as, the coach is coaching and not bothering them directly they did not have a problem with it.

So, I brought up the disconcetion situation and they stated I was being an OOO and that I would have a hard time advancing worrying about the location of a coach when he/she is just coaching.


Coaches do rate officials in Missouri.

Thoughts?
Listen to the other officials on this one. Just standing in the coach's box isn't going to be disconcertion. And, if a player is there (well, on the court), then it is a violation, but it's still not disconcertion.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 28, 2007, 12:18pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 1,342
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins
Listen to the other officials on this one. Just standing in the coach's box isn't going to be disconcertion. And, if a player is there (well, on the court), then it is a violation, but it's still not disconcertion.
Bob, I got that the problem is the coach is completely out of the box.
__________________
truerookie
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 28, 2007, 12:18pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by truerookie
10-5-1 By state association adoption, the head coach may be off the bench in front of his/her seat within the confines of the designated coaching box, as in 1-13-2 , for the purpose of coaching his/her team.

I went to observed a varsity tournament at a local high school. They have an annual tournament for their conference. Well, a coach of the opposing team was off the bench every time the other team went to shoot free-throws below the free throw line (first half). I found this odd because if a player was in the same location and he/she is not in the lane spaces or behind the arc it is a violation (disconcertion).

So, after the game I asked the officials why they allowed the coach to be in that location in the first half. The answer they gave me pissed me off. As long as, the coach is coaching and not bothering them directly they did not have a problem with it.

So, I brought up the disconcetion situation and they stated I was being an OOO and that I would have a hard time advancing worrying about the location of a coach when he/she is just coaching.


Coaches do rate officials in Missouri.


Thoughts?
You have just realized one of the biggest dilemas that officials face, especially when they are rated by coaches (which they are in IL as well). To me the bottom line is that a coach out of the box, then 1) If they are out and yelling at me and/or my partners it is a no brainer or 2) if they are coaching they are gaining an unfair advantage if the opposing coach is following the rules. That being said, I am not "looking" over there, but if I see a coach out of the box once, I might ignore it. If I see them out of the box again I will probably warn them. After that if you have warned them, you cannot warn them again or you lose all credibility, you have to follow through with the tech. That being said there is a difference between "being out of the box" and taking a step out for a second and then returning, you really have to use judgement in this area. As far as the comments from those officials, to me that is a crock...you may get a bad rating from a coach, but if this coach is one who would give you a bad rating based on you enforcing this rule, then they probably would have found something else to nail you on anyway...and I have never had an assignor give any negative feedback for issuing a tech....
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 28, 2007, 12:18pm
Lighten up, Francis.
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by truerookie
I found this odd because if a player was in the same location and he/she is not in the lane spaces or behind the arc it is a violation (disconcertion).

So, after the game I asked the officials why they allowed the coach to be in that location in the first half. The answer they gave me pissed me off. As long as, the coach is coaching and not bothering them directly they did not have a problem with it.
First, yes, it would be a violation for a player to stand there, but it would not be disconcertion. They just can't stand there. It would be like lining up in the wrong lane space. They're just not allowed to be there.

Second, many officials take this attitude. "As long as they're coaching, I don't care where they stand". Unfortunately, it's our job to care about it. (In fact, it's a huge POE in college this year.) So after the first free throw, I would quietly walk to the coach and remind him to back off the court and find the box.

Third, I don't think you'd be OOO by enforcing it, but what would you do about it, other than what I mentioned above? You can't call it a free throw violation. All you could do is T up the coach. And I would not do that without talking to him first.

This is very easy to handle with a 3-person crew, because the Trail official is right there. But in 2-person (except in Texas, I guess), the Trail is opposite the table and it's harder to communicate with the coach quietly.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 28, 2007, 12:20pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by truerookie
10-5-1 By state association adoption, the head coach may be off the bench in front of his/her seat within the confines of the designated coaching box, as in 1-13-2 , for the purpose of coaching his/her team.

I went to observed a varsity tournament at a local high school. They have an annual tournament for their conference. Well, a coach of the opposing team was off the bench every time the other team went to shoot free-throws below the free throw line (first half). I found this odd because if a player was in the same location and he/she is not in the lane spaces or behind the arc it is a violation (disconcertion).

So, after the game I asked the officials why they allowed the coach to be in that location in the first half. The answer they gave me pissed me off. As long as, the coach is coaching and not bothering them directly they did not have a problem with it.

So, I brought up the disconcetion situation and they stated I was being an OOO and that I would have a hard time advancing worrying about the location of a coach when he/she is just coaching.


Coaches do rate officials in Missouri.

Thoughts?
Personally, I'm with you about enforcing the coaching box, but I've learned that most officials are not on board with that. They just don't have the desire to make the effort. So yes what you heard is a popular excuse. The NCAA has made it a huge point this year that that attitude is unacceptable. We'll see how long this remains the case and if it affects assignments and NCAA/NIT selections.

That said, I think that you need to specify how big the box is in your state. In mine it's 14 feet, which does extend below the FT line. It starts at the 28 foot line and goes towards the end line, so the coach can be down to about the second marked lane space below the FT line PER THE RULE. Now if you have a six foot box, then it's halfway between the FT line and the top of the FT semicircle.

I've never felt that enforcing the rules and cleaning up the game is OOO, but there are many who do and many who have stated so on this forum.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 28, 2007, 12:28pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 1,342
[QUOTE=Nevadaref] Now if you have a six foot box, then it's halfway between the FT line and the top of the FT semicircle.

This one was six.
__________________
truerookie
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 28, 2007, 12:29pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 1,342
[QUOTE=Scrapper1]First, yes, it would be a violation for a player to stand there, but it would not be disconcertion. They just can't stand there. It would be like lining up in the wrong lane space. They're just not allowed to be there.

Right violation!
__________________
truerookie
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 28, 2007, 12:37pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Just north of hell
Posts: 9,250
Send a message via AIM to Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1
First, yes, it would be a violation for a player to stand there, but it would not be disconcertion. They just can't stand there. It would be like lining up in the wrong lane space. They're just not allowed to be there.

Second, many officials take this attitude. "As long as they're coaching, I don't care where they stand". Unfortunately, it's our job to care about it. (In fact, it's a huge POE in college this year.) So after the first free throw, I would quietly walk to the coach and remind him to back off the court and find the box.

Third, I don't think you'd be OOO by enforcing it, but what would you do about it, other than what I mentioned above? You can't call it a free throw violation. All you could do is T up the coach. And I would not do that without talking to him first.

This is very easy to handle with a 3-person crew, because the Trail official is right there. But in 2-person (except in Texas, I guess), the Trail is opposite the table and it's harder to communicate with the coach quietly.
I'll agree mostly except to say it's not clear to me the coach was on the floor. Even if he was ti's not entirely so difficult to shoo the coach off the court in 2 man, just yell across "hey coach!" and indicate by gesture to move back. Or get your partner's attention and have him do it. And unless he was REALLY out on the floor and not just standing there minding his own business I would find it OOO to say anything about it.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 28, 2007, 12:49pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 1,342
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
I'll agree mostly except to say it's not clear to me the coach was on the floor. Even if he was ti's not entirely so difficult to shoo the coach off the court in 2 man, just yell across "hey coach!" and indicate by gesture to move back. Or get your partner's attention and have him do it. And unless he was REALLY out on the floor and not just standing there minding his own business I would find it OOO to say anything about it.

Dan, the coach was not on the floor; on the sideline out of the designated box only when the opposing team is shooting free-throw.
__________________
truerookie
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 28, 2007, 12:59pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,383
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbilla
You have just realized one of the biggest dilemas that officials face, especially when they are rated by coaches (which they are in IL as well).
Coach’s ratings in Illinois are not even 1/8 of the Power rating (the percentile is combined with Certified officials). So I would hope that anyone from Illinois is not worried about what a coach might rate you. Also the ratings only apply to varsity contests of a particular gender. Ratings do not apply at lower level games and do not mean because you have higher ratings than other officials you will get post season assignments. So if an issue like this needs to be addressed (which I do not see anything different needing to be done other than the officials way officials on the court handled it in this particular game) if ratings are your motivation, then you are not really aware of how our system works. In other states the coach's ratings might mean everything. Here in Illinois they do not.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 28, 2007, 12:59pm
Lighten up, Francis.
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
I'll agree mostly except to say it's not clear to me the coach was on the floor.
Yup, I was still typing while others were posting. After I finished my post, I read the other ones, and realized that I assumed too much. My bad.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 28, 2007, 01:04pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
Coach’s ratings in Illinois are not even 1/8 of the Power rating (the percentile is combined with Certified officials).
So what makes up the other approx 7/8? Is it stuff that all officials may score similarly on or get the maximum score from? If so, then isn't this last bit what separates the officials and makes the difference in the selections for postseason?

Of course, I don't know that specifics of Illinois and really don't want to, but the logic of this argument would apply to anywhere that used coaches' ratings as a part of the officials ranking. One must examine closely how much of an impact it has, even if it is only a small percentage. That small number could be the difference maker.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 28, 2007, 01:28pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
Coach’s ratings in Illinois are not even 1/8 of the Power rating (the percentile is combined with Certified officials). So I would hope that anyone from Illinois is not worried about what a coach might rate you. Also the ratings only apply to varsity contests of a particular gender. Ratings do not apply at lower level games and do not mean because you have higher ratings than other officials you will get post season assignments. So if an issue like this needs to be addressed (which I do not see anything different needing to be done other than the officials way officials on the court handled it in this particular game) if ratings are your motivation, then you are not really aware of how our system works. In other states the coach's ratings might mean everything. Here in Illinois they do not.

Peace
I did not realize that it was that low, but I could care less regardless...you do what you have to do and let the rest shake out..
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 28, 2007, 01:32pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
So what makes up the other approx 7/8? Is it stuff that all officials may score similarly on or get the maximum score from? If so, then isn't this last bit what separates the officials and makes the difference in the selections for postseason?
Illinois has a 40 point rating system with only 5 points dedicated to ratings from coaches (combined with certified official's ratings). For example I bet in the past week I will receive more certified official's ratings than coach's ratings. Things like rankings, Top 15 percentile and test scores make up that rating. And if you are worried about one coach that you might not see again for 2 years then in my opinion you are worrying too much. I received about 70 ratings last year in Boy's basketball alone. The percentile involves a 2 year cycle so you can add about another 50 ratings the year before. And our rating system is based on the more ratings you get. For example if an official gets 5, number 1 ratings for the year is not going to be as well off as someone gets 50 number 3 ratings. So I want the coaches to rate me even if they give me what is called a bad rating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Of course, I don't know that specifics of Illinois and really don't want to, but the logic of this argument would apply to anywhere that used coaches' ratings as a part of the officials ranking. One must examine closely how much of an impact it has, even if it is only a small percentage. That small number could be the difference maker.
It might not apply if coaches ratings are the only area that get you post season assignments. In some areas the coaches pick the officials for the post season assignments (Texas Football is an example of this). My point was our system is not as ridged based on what a coach rates you. Making calls because a coach might be upset (around here) should not even be a factor in how you call the game or interact with a coach.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
over my head? CLH Basketball 4 Thu Nov 15, 2007 01:12pm
Official Head-to-Head Rule superhornet Softball 10 Sat Aug 06, 2005 10:50am
HBP in the head. cowbyfan1 Baseball 27 Fri Jun 03, 2005 06:15am
proper coache's attire Illinois blue Softball 13 Mon Apr 25, 2005 07:36pm
Off the head, and one? Rick Durkee Basketball 9 Fri Nov 05, 2004 07:12pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:16pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1