Jump Ball and holding your spots...

[Y2Koach]

Had a discussion with the officials the other day during our 4 team jamboree scrimmage in which each period started with a jumpball at center circle. There was 1 senior official training 5 newbie officials and they rotated in and out each period.

As my team (A) was getting ready for our first scrimmage period, we set up for the jump. Since my team is vertically challenged, I send out my shortest player A1 to jump. A4 and A3 are side-by-side with 2 opposing players along the circle, with A5 back to protect our basket. A2 is told to start circling about 10 feet off of the circle in the direction of where we think the opposing "jumper" will tap the ball.

Senior official tells his newbie official to announce to the players to "hold your spots" prior to tossing the ball up. As the ball is tossed, A2 catches the tap in stride and goes in for an uncontested layup. Whistle. No basket, violation called on A2 moving prior to the toss.

I did not have my rule book with me but I am pretty sure players are allowed to move if they are off of the center circle, 5 ft comes to mind but I dont have a reference and my player was clearly 10ft+ off of the circle.

Anyways, every time we got a new set of officials, we tried this play again and it would work. One time, the officials on the court let the play go and the senior official hit the buzzer and came onto the court to scold the 2 newbies, and had them re-start the period.

I will try to look up the rules regarding the center toss when I get home (Im a coach with the rulebook by my night stand, go figure). Until then, can anyone tell me if I was correct or not in my memory of the rule? Rule reference? Any recommended punishment for me intentionally trying to agravate newbie officials?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

Had a discussion with the officials the other day during our 4 team jamboree scrimmage in which each period started with a jumpball at center circle. There was 1 senior official training 5 newbie officials and they rotated in and out each period.

As my team (A) was getting ready for our first scrimmage period, we set up for the jump. Since my team is vertically challenged, I send out my shortest player A1 to jump. A4 and A3 are side-by-side with 2 opposing players along the circle, with A5 back to protect our basket. A2 is told to start circling about 10 feet off of the circle in the direction of where we think the opposing "jumper" will tap the ball.

Senior official tells his newbie official to announce to the players to "hold your spots" prior to tossing the ball up. As the ball is tossed, A2 catches the tap in stride and goes in for an uncontested layup. Whistle. No basket, violation called on A2 moving prior to the toss.

I did not have my rule book with me but I am pretty sure players are allowed to move if they are off of the center circle, 5 ft comes to mind but I dont have a reference and my player was clearly 10ft+ off of the circle.

Anyways, every time we got a new set of officials, we tried this play again and it would work. One time, the officials on the court let the play go and the senior official hit the buzzer and came onto the court to scold the 2 newbies, and had them re-start the period.

I will try to look up the rules regarding the center toss when I get home (Im a coach with the rulebook by my night stand, go figure). Until then, can anyone tell me if I was correct or not in my memory of the rule? Rule reference? Any recommended punishment for me intentionally trying to agravate newbie officials?

You were (mostly) correct. Each "space" is 3' deep, (not 5').

Once the R is ready, players can't move onto the circle or around it.

Once it's tossed and before it's touched, non-jumpers can't move into the circle or into an occupied space. Also, the jumper can't leave the circle until the ball is touched.

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

You were (mostly) correct. Each "space" is 3' deep, (not 5').

Once the R is ready, players can't move onto the circle or around it.

Once it's tossed and before it's touched, non-jumpers can't move into the circle or into an occupied space. Also, the jumper can't leave the circle until the ball is touched.

Looking for it but can't find the 3 foot reference. Anybody feel like pointing it out to me ?

[mj]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

Looking for it but can't find the 3 foot reference. Anybody feel like pointing it out to me ?

It's in the case book...Situation 6.3.2

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by mj

It's in the case book...Situation 6.3.2

Thanks.....Casebook was my next stop....

[IREFU2]

Rule book - 6-3-5a&b also....page 47

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

Looking for it but can't find the 3 foot reference. Anybody feel like pointing it out to me ?

1-3-1 ...Spaces for nonjumpers around the center restraining circle are 36 inches deep.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

I will try to look up the rules regarding the center toss when I get home (Im a coach with the rulebook by my night stand, go figure). Until then, can anyone tell me if I was correct or not in my memory of the rule? Rule reference?

6-3-2 When the referee is ready and until the ball is tossed, non-jumpers shall not: (a)Move onto the center restraining circle. (b)Change position around the center restraining circle.
6-3-5 Until the tossed ball is touched by one or both jumpers, non-jumpers shall not: (a) Have either foot break the plane of the center restraining circle cylinder. (b) Take a position in any occupied space.

So, it looks like your memory isn't too bad, yet.

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

Any recommended punishment for me intentionally trying to agravate newbie officials?

Perhaps, next time the wife has other ideas, pick up your books from the night stand, and see what her reaction is... (Ok, that might be considered cruel and unusual.)

[Y2Koach]

So non-movement only applies to those lined up on the circle. Non-jumpers not lined up on the circle (within 3 ft of the circle) may move, as long as they do not enter within 3ft of the circle?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

So non-movement only applies to those lined up on the circle. Non-jumpers not lined up on the circle (within 3 ft of the circle) may move, as long as they do not enter within 3ft of the circle?

According to the rules, that's correct.

Of course, your mileage may vary...

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

So non-movement only applies to those lined up on the circle. Non-jumpers not lined up on the circle (within 3 ft of the circle) may move, as long as they do not enter within 3ft of the circle?

That is basically correct.

The senior official from your scrimmage was totally WRONG. There is no rule requiring the players not on the circle to remain stationary during the jumpball. It is sad to hear that he was incorrectly training new officials.

As other have stated there is only a restriction that prevents these players from coming up and taking a position on/around the center restraining circle.

Also many do not know this, but the players who start out in a position on the circle may actually back straight up past three feet and then move around. They don't have to stay put either. This is why what you wrote above is not 100% correct.

Sadly the "hold your spots" concept is one of the myths of basketball that many officials perpetuate. It only applies in a very limited sense. I tell my fellow officials not to say that. It is misleading.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

6-3-2 When the referee is ready and until the ball is tossed, non-jumpers shall not: (a)Move onto the center restraining circle. (b)Change position around the center restraining circle.
6-3-5 Until the tossed ball is touched by one or both jumpers, non-jumpers shall not: (a) Have either foot break the plane of the center restraining circle cylinder. (b) Take a position in any occupied space.

So, it looks like your memory isn't too bad, yet.

Perhaps, next time the wife has other ideas, pick up your books from the night stand, and see what her reaction is... (Ok, that might be considered cruel and unusual.)

I believe even players "on the circle" may move OFF the circle when the ball is released. They just can't "change position around the circle" as the rule states. For example, a player on the circle can break backward off the circle toward the basket.

Telling the players to "hold your positions" is not advisable as it is coaching the players in a sense. Sort of like saying "move those hands up more vertical". Just bad form by an official IMO.

[Nevadaref]

Quote:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy
6-3-2 When the referee is ready and until the ball is tossed, non-jumpers shall not: (a)Move onto the center restraining circle. (b)Change position around the center restraining circle.
6-3-5 Until the tossed ball is touched by one or both jumpers, non-jumpers shall not: (a) Have either foot break the plane of the center restraining circle cylinder. (b) Take a position in any occupied space.

Originally Posted by Ralph

I believe even players "on the circle" may move OFF the circle when the ball is released. They just can't "change position around the circle" as the rule states. For example, a player on the circle can break backward off the circle toward the basket.

Telling the players to "hold your positions" is not advisable as it is coaching the players in a sense. Sort of like saying "move those hands up more vertical". Just bad form by an official IMO.

M&M provided the restrictions on the non-jumpers. Therefore, it follows that these players can take any other action with regard to their positioning and the timing of it without penalty.

So actually the non-jumpers may back off from the circle even prior to the referee releasing the ball. They don't have to wait for the toss for that.

I agree with the rest of your post and welcome to the forum.

[dan74]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

5 newbie officials and they rotated in and out each period...Anyways, every time we got a new set of officials, we tried this play again and it would work. One time, the officials on the court let the play go and the senior official hit the buzzer and came onto the court to scold the 2 newbies, and had them re-start the period...Until then, can anyone tell me if I was correct or not in my memory of the rule?...Any recommended punishment for me intentionally trying to agravate newbie officials?

On one hand I learned something new by this thread. On the other hand, IMO, it's a bit questionable for someone to deliberately try to aggravate anyone, newbie official or not. If this was simply game strategy, fine, no problem. However, why "intentionally" add stress to a new officials already stressful situation when you weren't sure the strategy was allowed? If you got a kick out of doing this, please take me off your Xmas card list as punishment.

What ever happened to those kids in school that used to tease the heavier kids in the hallways because of their weight or ridicule kids because they were in special ed classes?

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by dan74

On one hand I learned something new by this thread. On the other hand, IMO, it's a bit questionable for someone to deliberately try to aggravate anyone, newbie official or not. If this was simply game strategy, fine, no problem. However, why "intentionally" add stress to a new officials already stressful situation when you weren't sure the strategy was allowed?

My read, Dan, is that it was a strategy that they used for their basketball and his comments about aggravating the new refs was just a josh. Sometimes, even a coach can be amusing. Although I understand why you might not believe that.