Jump Ball and holding your spots...

[Y2Koach]

Had a discussion with the officials the other day during our 4 team jamboree scrimmage in which each period started with a jumpball at center circle. There was 1 senior official training 5 newbie officials and they rotated in and out each period.

As my team (A) was getting ready for our first scrimmage period, we set up for the jump. Since my team is vertically challenged, I send out my shortest player A1 to jump. A4 and A3 are side-by-side with 2 opposing players along the circle, with A5 back to protect our basket. A2 is told to start circling about 10 feet off of the circle in the direction of where we think the opposing "jumper" will tap the ball.

Senior official tells his newbie official to announce to the players to "hold your spots" prior to tossing the ball up. As the ball is tossed, A2 catches the tap in stride and goes in for an uncontested layup. Whistle. No basket, violation called on A2 moving prior to the toss.

I did not have my rule book with me but I am pretty sure players are allowed to move if they are off of the center circle, 5 ft comes to mind but I dont have a reference and my player was clearly 10ft+ off of the circle.

Anyways, every time we got a new set of officials, we tried this play again and it would work. One time, the officials on the court let the play go and the senior official hit the buzzer and came onto the court to scold the 2 newbies, and had them re-start the period.

I will try to look up the rules regarding the center toss when I get home (Im a coach with the rulebook by my night stand, go figure). Until then, can anyone tell me if I was correct or not in my memory of the rule? Rule reference? Any recommended punishment for me intentionally trying to agravate newbie officials?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

Had a discussion with the officials the other day during our 4 team jamboree scrimmage in which each period started with a jumpball at center circle. There was 1 senior official training 5 newbie officials and they rotated in and out each period.

As my team (A) was getting ready for our first scrimmage period, we set up for the jump. Since my team is vertically challenged, I send out my shortest player A1 to jump. A4 and A3 are side-by-side with 2 opposing players along the circle, with A5 back to protect our basket. A2 is told to start circling about 10 feet off of the circle in the direction of where we think the opposing "jumper" will tap the ball.

Senior official tells his newbie official to announce to the players to "hold your spots" prior to tossing the ball up. As the ball is tossed, A2 catches the tap in stride and goes in for an uncontested layup. Whistle. No basket, violation called on A2 moving prior to the toss.

I did not have my rule book with me but I am pretty sure players are allowed to move if they are off of the center circle, 5 ft comes to mind but I dont have a reference and my player was clearly 10ft+ off of the circle.

Anyways, every time we got a new set of officials, we tried this play again and it would work. One time, the officials on the court let the play go and the senior official hit the buzzer and came onto the court to scold the 2 newbies, and had them re-start the period.

I will try to look up the rules regarding the center toss when I get home (Im a coach with the rulebook by my night stand, go figure). Until then, can anyone tell me if I was correct or not in my memory of the rule? Rule reference? Any recommended punishment for me intentionally trying to agravate newbie officials?

You were (mostly) correct. Each "space" is 3' deep, (not 5').

Once the R is ready, players can't move onto the circle or around it.

Once it's tossed and before it's touched, non-jumpers can't move into the circle or into an occupied space. Also, the jumper can't leave the circle until the ball is touched.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

I will try to look up the rules regarding the center toss when I get home (Im a coach with the rulebook by my night stand, go figure). Until then, can anyone tell me if I was correct or not in my memory of the rule? Rule reference?

6-3-2 When the referee is ready and until the ball is tossed, non-jumpers shall not: (a)Move onto the center restraining circle. (b)Change position around the center restraining circle.
6-3-5 Until the tossed ball is touched by one or both jumpers, non-jumpers shall not: (a) Have either foot break the plane of the center restraining circle cylinder. (b) Take a position in any occupied space.

So, it looks like your memory isn't too bad, yet.

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

Any recommended punishment for me intentionally trying to agravate newbie officials?

Perhaps, next time the wife has other ideas, pick up your books from the night stand, and see what her reaction is... (Ok, that might be considered cruel and unusual.)

[Y2Koach]

So non-movement only applies to those lined up on the circle. Non-jumpers not lined up on the circle (within 3 ft of the circle) may move, as long as they do not enter within 3ft of the circle?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

So non-movement only applies to those lined up on the circle. Non-jumpers not lined up on the circle (within 3 ft of the circle) may move, as long as they do not enter within 3ft of the circle?

According to the rules, that's correct.

Of course, your mileage may vary...

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

So non-movement only applies to those lined up on the circle. Non-jumpers not lined up on the circle (within 3 ft of the circle) may move, as long as they do not enter within 3ft of the circle?

That is basically correct.

The senior official from your scrimmage was totally WRONG. There is no rule requiring the players not on the circle to remain stationary during the jumpball. It is sad to hear that he was incorrectly training new officials.

As other have stated there is only a restriction that prevents these players from coming up and taking a position on/around the center restraining circle.

Also many do not know this, but the players who start out in a position on the circle may actually back straight up past three feet and then move around. They don't have to stay put either. This is why what you wrote above is not 100% correct.

Sadly the "hold your spots" concept is one of the myths of basketball that many officials perpetuate. It only applies in a very limited sense. I tell my fellow officials not to say that. It is misleading.

[dan74]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

5 newbie officials and they rotated in and out each period...Anyways, every time we got a new set of officials, we tried this play again and it would work. One time, the officials on the court let the play go and the senior official hit the buzzer and came onto the court to scold the 2 newbies, and had them re-start the period...Until then, can anyone tell me if I was correct or not in my memory of the rule?...Any recommended punishment for me intentionally trying to agravate newbie officials?

On one hand I learned something new by this thread. On the other hand, IMO, it's a bit questionable for someone to deliberately try to aggravate anyone, newbie official or not. If this was simply game strategy, fine, no problem. However, why "intentionally" add stress to a new officials already stressful situation when you weren't sure the strategy was allowed? If you got a kick out of doing this, please take me off your Xmas card list as punishment.

What ever happened to those kids in school that used to tease the heavier kids in the hallways because of their weight or ridicule kids because they were in special ed classes?

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by dan74

On one hand I learned something new by this thread. On the other hand, IMO, it's a bit questionable for someone to deliberately try to aggravate anyone, newbie official or not. If this was simply game strategy, fine, no problem. However, why "intentionally" add stress to a new officials already stressful situation when you weren't sure the strategy was allowed?

My read, Dan, is that it was a strategy that they used for their basketball and his comments about aggravating the new refs was just a josh. Sometimes, even a coach can be amusing. Although I understand why you might not believe that.

[Nevadaref]

Even if it wasn't, I would rather that the new officials would be exposed to such situations during a scrimmage than during a real game. We sometimes ask teams to do some odd stuff during preseason scrimmages to give our newer officials a bit of a test and get them thinking.
For example, we may ask a thrower to hold the ball across the boundary plane and have the defender smack it or try to grab it. This is not a play that happens with great frequency, but is one that we want our officials to know and get correct as they aspire to move up the ranks.
I will grant that this stuff is usually done for people in their first three years and not brand new folks. Some of them we do it just to shrink their heads a bit. You've all seen those people who have reffed for a couple of years and now think that they are the greatest and deserve the playoff assignments.

[dan74]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Even if it wasn't, I would rather that the new officials would be exposed to such situations during a scrimmage than during a real game. We sometimes ask teams to do some odd stuff during preseason scrimmages to give our newer officials a bit of a test and get them thinking.
For example, we may ask a thrower to hold the ball across the boundary plane and have the defender smack it or try to grab it. This is not a play that happens with great frequency, but is one that we want our officials to know and get correct as they aspire to move up the ranks.
I will grant that this stuff is usually done for people in their first three years and not brand new folks. Some of them we do it just to shrink their heads a bit. You've all seen those people who have reffed for a couple of years and now think that they are the greatest and deserve the playoff assignments.

Nevada, yep, I agree.

Rainmaker, I figured Y2 was mostly joking.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by dan74

Nevada, yep, I agree.

Rainmaker, I figured he was joking, but still wonder if he enjoyed it just a little.

LOL! Well, if I was a coach, I would enjoy it, gotta admit. ALthough I think I'd enjoy it more if I thought the refs were actually going to learn the rule instead of getting a wrong lesson.

[dan74]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

LOL! Well, if I was a coach, I would enjoy it, gotta admit. ALthough I think I'd enjoy it more if I thought the refs were actually going to learn the rule instead of getting a wrong lesson.

I agree.

Hypothetically, if I were coaching and wasn't sure of the rule, I would've ran the play too and enjoyed it. But my enjoyment would've been hampered by not being sure if I was correct on the rule. I probably would've asked the senior official after the first scrimmage for clarification. If afterward I still had a feeling that the senior official was wrong, I wouldn't run it again to start the next couple scrimmages, as I wouldn't want the newbies to learn a wrong lesson or for my players to practice something that might possibly be against the rules (just in case I was wrong).

I agree with deliberately throwing unique situations at newer officials in a scrimmage setting-maybe those with some experience under their belts; however, that's if the person establishing the scenario is sure of the rule. If the person's not sure, then what is that person's point?

[Adam]

Y2Koach, is there an assigner your AD has access to? Seriously, this seems to be an issue you'd want to get resolved quickly if you're going to be using this tactic during the season.

[ref5678]

as opposed to saying hold your spots I always say "set on the circle" but i guess i shouldnt say this either since they can back up the three feet, and move. Hmmm should the whistle be the only signal that jump ball restrictions have begun?

[Nevadaref]

Those on the circle can also move with their 3ft space. There is no requirement that they remain stationary. They merely cannot move into another such space.

I don't mind your "set on the circle" as much as I object to those officials who say, "Hold your spots." Of course, the question that you have already raised is the one that you must answer for yourself. Why are you saying anything to the players at all? Is it necessary?