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Old Sun Nov 18, 2007, 07:23pm
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What's the call - technicals at the end of the game

I am a beginning referee and wanted a professional opinion on what to do in this situation.

I was watching a Tournament Championship game today. With the score 40 - 40, team A made a three-pointer which ended the game. Team A won 43 - 40.

But hold on...

In celebration, two players from team A removed their jerseys. The refs called two technical fouls. Team B shot and made all four shots winning the game 44 - 43.

In terms of rules, I know this this indeed calls for a technical foul. I also know that the official's jurisdiction does not end until they leave the visual confines of the court.

With that being said, I believe that in that situation, I would have walked over to the scoring table, signed the sheet, and immediately left the gym, with my back to the court. I felt as if this procedural foul did not affect the game, and thus, shouldn't have an effect on the outcome of the game.

Would I have made the right choice here? What other options are there? What would you have done in this situation?
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sun Nov 18, 2007, 07:32pm
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In reality.....is the words WOW too much?

I would simply say to you, in reality I do not know why an official would put themselves in such a trick bag and call this. The game is over, leave the court.

Also as a new official, you need to know that you do not want to go right to the book and sign it. The score is approved when the officials leave the floor. You do not ever want to go to the table and sign anything. This is going to get you in more trouble than it is worth. If the officials on this game just left and stopped trying to witness what everyone was done, the game would have been over. Even though they might have been completely right by rule, they were completely wrong with common sense and philosophy. When the game is over I get the heck off the court, I do not want to even know what players or coaches do at that point. They are not handing out candy.

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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sun Nov 18, 2007, 07:33pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imgrund
I am a beginning referee and wanted a professional opinion on what to do in this situation.

I was watching a Tournament Championship game today. With the score 40 - 40, team A made a three-pointer which ended the game. Team A won 43 - 40.

But hold on...

In celebration, two players from team A removed their jerseys. The refs called two technical fouls. Team B shot and made all four shots winning the game 44 - 43.

In terms of rules, I know this this indeed calls for a technical foul. I also know that the official's jurisdiction does not end until they leave the visual confines of the court.

With that being said, I believe that in that situation, I would have walked over to the scoring table, signed the sheet, and immediately left the gym, with my back to the court. I felt as if this procedural foul did not affect the game, and thus, shouldn't have an effect on the outcome of the game.

Would I have made the right choice here? What other options are there? What would you have done in this situation?
To me, it would depend on when the shirts came off. As the buzzer sounded, did the players run onto the floor, ripping their shirts off? Or was it 5 minutes later and the refs were standing talking to the scorekeeper about their kids' graduation party?

We are told to sign the sheet ahead of time, and get the hell out of Dodge asap after the horn.

But that doesn't negate the idiocy of some players who couldn't possibly wait a few more seconds to be obnoxious.
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Old Sun Nov 18, 2007, 07:47pm
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Not just 1 T, but 2. Cute.

Seems OOO to me...where's Nevada?
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sun Nov 18, 2007, 07:49pm
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
Not just 1 T, but 2. Cute.

Seems OOO to me...where's Nevada?
Now I have to wipe off my computer screen with the soda I just threw up on it.

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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Sun Nov 18, 2007, 11:36pm
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When the game is over, take one last look at the scorekeeper to make sure they aren't frantically waving you back. If they aren't, locate your partners and get the heck off the floor.

What's the intent and purpose of the "pulling out the shirt" rule? I would say that it's to prevent taunting opponents or disrespecting officials. IMO, I don't think it was put in the rulebook so that officials could give a technical to celebrating players after the game when we should be more worried about finding the locker room.

What's the intent and purpose of the referees still having jurisdiction until they have left the confines of the playing court? IMO, it's so that players or coaches can't vent on us after the game with no consequences.

As you described the situation, it sounds like some officials who went looking for trouble and found it. It's one way to get your name known as an official, but the wrong way.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 19, 2007, 04:06am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
Not just 1 T, but 2. Cute.

Seems OOO to me...where's Nevada?
Well, you are free to feel that it is OO if you please, but it is exactly what the NFHS wants called. My personal opinion does not matter, nor does yours or Rut's.
I would just administer it according to the rules. Granted that the situation presented in the OP is a bit over the top (and I personally don't believe that it actually happened), but it is a textbook example of how the FED wants it handled.

Here is the specific play ruling that was issued two seasons ago:
2005-06 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations

SITUATION 3: Team A is leading 62-60 when the horn sounds to end the game. A1 then removes his/her jersey near the team bench (a) before the officials leave the visual confines of the playing area; or (b) after the officials leave the visual confines of the playing area. RULING: In (a), A1 is assessed a technical foul. Team B is awarded two free throws; if both are successful, overtime will be played. In (b), since the officials' jurisdiction has ended, no penalty is assessed. (3-4-15; 2-2-4; 10-4-1h)
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 19, 2007, 07:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
My personal opinion does not matter, nor does yours or Rut's.
Mine does.

Just saying......
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Old Mon Nov 19, 2007, 08:14am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Well, you are free to feel that it is OO if you please, but it is exactly what the NFHS wants called. My personal opinion does not matter, nor does yours or Rut's.
Well my opinion counts, if I'm on the court.
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 19, 2007, 09:42am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Mine does.

Just saying......
So would you or would you not give a T in this situation? Cause if memory serves me correctly, you seem to be a pretty strict interpreter of the rule book, especially when it comes to handing out T's when the clock is stopped.
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Old Mon Nov 19, 2007, 09:48am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
Also as a new official, you need to know that you do not want to go right to the book and sign it.
While I agree, it is SOP to do this in some areas.

And, while I wouldn't look for the T, if it was done in any kind of "taunting" manner, I would assess it.
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 19, 2007, 10:35am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
So would you or would you not give a T in this situation? Cause if memory serves me correctly, you seem to be a pretty strict interpreter of the rule book, especially when it comes to handing out T's when the clock is stopped.
Myself? I'm outa there as soon as the final horn goes. However, if I do see something on my way out that I think is related to unsporting behavior, taunting, etc., then I ain't gonna walk away from it. If I thought the players took their shirts off to taunt the other team or their fans, then I'll call it. If they're just around their own bench celebrating, I'm keeping on a-going.

There's one heckuva big difference between knowing the rules and also knowing when to apply the rules. All good officials know the rules. OOO's however don't know when to apply their extensive rules knowledge. The difference usually is common sense imo.

Yes, I'm a strict interpreter of the rules. I'm not always a strict applier of all of those rules though. Big difference. Apples and oranges. One is concerned with straight knowledge; the other usually is judgment.

Btw, making sure that it's a "T" when it couldn't possibly be a personal foul by rule has got no relation at all to what's being discussed in this thread. That's on a par with deciding whether a foul is shooting or non-shooting. Don't confuse my saying that if you call a foul under certain situations then that foul must be a technical with extrapolating that to mean that you HAVE to call a technical foul under those situations. The idea is that if you do make a call, make sure that you're making the proper call under the rules.

Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 10:37am.
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 19, 2007, 10:44am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Myself? I'm outa there as soon as the final horn goes. However, if I do see something on my way out that I think is related to unsporting behavior, taunting, etc., then I ain't gonna walk away from it. If I thought the players took their shirts off to taunt the other team or their fans, then I'll call it. If they're just around their own bench celebrating, I'm keeping on a-going.

There's one heckuva big difference between knowing the rules and also knowing when to apply the rules. All good officials know the rules. OOO's however don't know when to apply their extensive rules knowledge. The difference usually is common sense imo.

Yes, I'm a strict interpreter of the rules. I'm not always a strict applier of all of those rules though. Big difference. Apples and oranges. One is concerned with straight knowledge; the other usually is judgment.

Btw, making sure that it's a "T" when it couldn't possibly be a personal foul by rule has got no relation at all to what's being discussed in this thread. That's on a par with deciding whether a foul is shooting or non-shooting. Don't confuse my saying that if you call a foul under certain situations then that foul must be a technical with extrapolating that to mean that you HAVE to call a technical foul under those situations. The idea is that if you do make a call, make sure that you're making the proper call under the rules.
Wow!! Actual officiating wisdom from the Jurassic Curmudgeon himself. This is a very good post and these concepts should be fleshed out and included in the Officials' Manual. Seriously.
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 19, 2007, 10:57am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
...... these concepts should be fleshed out and included in the Officials' Manual. Seriously.
Thanks for the kind words but not everybody agrees with those concepts though, Juulie. Everybody has their own opinion.
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Old Mon Nov 19, 2007, 11:18am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Thanks for the kind words but not everybody agrees with those concepts though, Juulie. Everybody has their own opinion.
Interpret the rules strictly, but apply them with judgment. That seems pretty fundamental to me. Add it to my rules to live by. Others can do as they choose.
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