Unsportsmanlike?

[Rev.Ref63]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I am sorry, but you aren't going to like what I am about to say.

Since I am a Pastor, would you allow me to share a verse with you?
Proverbs 12:1 Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof is brutish [foolish]. (KJV)
I have no problem accepting correction and reproof from those who are more learned in these areas. Only a fool would not take this counsel under advisement.

I would suggest that you go to http://www.NFHS.org or http://www.NASO.org or http://www.IAABO.org and check out the officiating codes of ethics on any of these websites.

I will check them out.

[Rev.Ref63]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I would suggest that you go to http://www.NFHS.org or http://www.NASO.org or http://www.IAABO.org and check out the officiating codes of ethics on any of these websites.

From the NASO website:

ARTICLE II
Sports officials recognize that anything which may lead to a conflict of interest, either real or apparent, must be avoided. Gifts, favors, special treatment, privileges, employment or a personal relationship with a school or team which can compromise the perceived impartiality of officiating must be avoided.

I can see where chatting with an opposing coach before the game may be considered as compromising my impartiality. A word to the wise is sufficient.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rev.Ref63

I apologize if you feel that I attacked you; that was certainly not my intentions. My basis for sharing the conversation with this coach was the fact that you gave your opinion on how this coach would have reacted had the officials handled the situation the way in which I said I would probably handle it. You may be correct that some coaches would react as such, but this coach, by his own admission, would not have. That was simply my point.

I am a big guy I can deal with adversity and someone coming after me. After all that happens every time I am on the court.

Having said all of that, I am really surprised by your reaction because what I said was an honest question. I just want to know what value any coach has to this kind of discussion. What they think is not something I would be concerned with or what any other officials worth their salt would know about.

Originally Posted by Rev.Ref63

I visited with this coach before the game. It was a Saturday tournament and when I arrived at the gym, I discovered that the schedule was about 45 minutes behind. The game before mine was still in the second quarter. One partner had not yet arrived and the other was working the game in progress. The coach, knowing me from previous games, chatted with me for about 20 minutes until it was time for me to change.

I am not going there with Mark on this one. I know how you can be approached by a coach when you were not seeking their approval. Yesterday I talked briefly with the coach because they were in the room we were getting dressed. I do not see every conversation with a coach as unprofessional just because it happened by for the game.

Originally Posted by Rev.Ref63

I have no animosity toward you in the least. I was a bit surprised that you would call my integrity and judgment into question over a disagreement so trivial, especially when many on here seemed to understand and agree with me.

I did not even call your integrity into question. I just asked a question because what the coach in my eyes has no value. Even if the coach agreed with my position, his opinion would not be something that I feel meant anything. I stand by your interpretation is not based on the rules but based on more of a "moral" issue as to where someone can or cannot stand. And I feel that when you call a T, you better be doing things that are supported than just thinking something is more than what it really is.

Originally Posted by Rev.Ref63

Again, I apologize if I've offended you in any way. I have, and will continue to value your input and insight into the variety of questions posed on this forum. Many I have read and agreed with without ever joining the discussion.

You did not offend me. You do not have to apologize for that. I was surprised by your reaction, but it takes more to offend me than what you said to me.

Peace

[Rev.Ref63]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I did not even call your integrity into question. I just asked a question because what the coach in my eyes has no value.

I realize this discussion is over, but I want to clarify that your comment about me talking to the coach was not what I was referring to. I was referring to earlier posts in which you called my judgment and integrity into question for suggesting that I would intervene if this scenario were to occur in my game.

I agree 100% that the coach's input has no bearing on our calls, but I disagree that a coach's opinion has no value. I would take the coach's comments as an opportunity to study the issue more closely and make sure that I get it right.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rev.Ref63

I realize this discussion is over, but I want to clarify that your comment about me talking to the coach was not what I was referring to. I was referring to earlier posts in which you called my judgment and integrity into question for suggesting that I would intervene if this scenario were to occur in my game.

I do not know how I questioned your integrity. I might have questioned your judgment and the reasoning behind that judgment. I think you are being a little sensitive when you are so worried about what I said in this. I was not the only person that took my position and I even did not continue most of the conversation. I just do not think your logic is anything but feeling uneasy about something rather than having a solid rules interpretation to back that up. And as I have said that if this is what you want to call that is your issue. When we call Ts, officials usually have to explain them. In my opinion you would have to really explain that one and I would not doubt that it affects how you are viewed if you were working with and assignor and that was your logic.

Originally Posted by Rev.Ref63

I agree 100% that the coach's input has no bearing on our calls, but I disagree that a coach's opinion has no value. I would take the coach's comments as an opportunity to study the issue more closely and make sure that I get it right.

Well the coach's opinion has no value to me. Maybe what he has to say has value to you. Coaches want anything called that is going to benefit them. And I do not need to hear what a coach says to change or develop my opinion on this. This situation raises more issues that can become bigger issues if you do what you suggest.

Peace

[Rev.Ref63]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not know how I questioned your integrity.

When you implied that I would make a decision regardless of rules support, was questioning my integrity as an official, in my opinion. Granted, I may have been overly sensitive, but integrity is a huge part of my profession.

When we call Ts, officials usually have to explain them.

This poses another problem. I have continually expressed that I would not have handled this with a 'T' yet, you still imply that I would. That is simply not the case. That changes the whole scenario.

Coaches want anything called that is going to benefit them. And I do not need to hear what a coach says to change or develop my opinion on this. This situation raises more issues that can become bigger issues if you do what you suggest.

You are reading far more into this than is here. I would take any and all talk from coaches and other officials to improve my ability to make the right call. I am not too proud to admit that I've been wrong and a coach has been right. In Kansas, coaches attended the very same rules meetings as did the officials. They, for the most part, at least understand the rules.

Let me be clear that any personal reflection of what a coach says would occur after the game and not during the game. I would never change my call due to a coaches input during a game.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Rev.Ref63

When you implied that I would make a decision regardless of rules support, was questioning my integrity as an official, in my opinion. Granted, I may have been overly sensitive, but integrity is a huge part of my profession.

hmmm...so the rest of us don't need to worry as much about our own integrity for some reason?

[Rev.Ref63]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

hmmm...so the rest of us don't need to worry as much about our own integrity for some reason?

I would hope you are as concerned with your personal integrity as I am with mine, regardless of your profession. Did I imply otherwise?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rev.Ref63

When you implied that I would make a decision regardless of rules support, was questioning my integrity as an official, in my opinion. Granted, I may have been overly sensitive, but integrity is a huge part of my profession.

Having rules support means a lot of things to me. It means do the rules explicitly say this is illegal? Is there an official interpretation that supports this specific situation (Casebook or NF literature sent out recently)? Was this the spirit of the rule when create? As far as I know you have none of those things. That has nothing to do with your integrity. People make rulings all the time and they are not supported by the rules clearly and this is the reason every year there is a clarification or a rules change to mirror what is intended. That is also the reason new rules are created because a certain action needs to be stopped or clarify what is allowed because of the rule. I was questioning your knowledge of the rule you wanted to invoke, I am not sure how that involves your integrity. Newer officials do not know many aspects of the rules because they have not been around a long time. That does not mean their integrity is in question. I think you really are taking what is being said on an internet site to heart way too much.

Originally Posted by Rev.Ref63

This poses another problem. I have continually expressed that I would not have handled this with a 'T' yet, you still imply that I would. That is simply not the case. That changes the whole scenario.

I am not here to debate this issue all over again. I do know that you are the only person I can think of that has even brought this up as an issue. I even deal with newer officials a lot and they do not bring up this issue. What is funny if this was outlawed I would have seen several Ts in games since by officials that do not even know this web site exists. Or every time there is a throw-in is attempted, there would be someone thinking something needs to be done. I cannot recall another official even bring up the issue, but you have. I do not know what you expect people to think. I feel you are (not you personally) what you talk about.

Originally Posted by Rev.Ref63

You are reading far more into this than is here. I would take any and all talk from coaches and other officials to improve my ability to make the right call. I am not too proud to admit that I've been wrong and a coach has been right. In Kansas, coaches attended the very same rules meetings as did the officials. They, for the most part, at least understand the rules.

Let me be clear that any personal reflection of what a coach says would occur after the game and not during the game. I would never change my call due to a coaches input during a game.

Look, you have every right to ignore everything I have said and the reasoning behind it. I just find it odd that you brought this issue to the forefront and you wanted opinions. When you got those opinions you seem to want to justify what you feel. There is nothing wrong with your debating this issue, but you seem to be so offended that people would suggest that they disagree with you. Rev, I do not know you personally and I certainly will not be working with you anytime soon whether you or I want that to happen. If you feel you are right then do what you feel works for you. I just offered an opinion to the situation and you are even seeking my opinion in other situations that are unimportant to me in the bigger picture.

Peace

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

hmmm...so the rest of us don't need to worry as much about our own integrity for some reason?

Well, to be honest - no, some of us probably don't have to worry about our integrity as much as others. Some professions are held to a higher standard than others. That's just the way it is...someone questioning my integrity really poses no threat to my real career, but for a Pastor, it can and does.

[Rev.Ref63]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There is nothing wrong with your debating this issue, but you seem to be so offended that people would suggest that they disagree with you.

I am not offended that people would disagree at all. However, many seemed to understand and agree with me that something should have been done. It was the misrepresentation and the misunderstanding of the scenario that prompted me to continue this discussion for clarity sake.

Also, I am not trying to justify how I "feel." I am trying to gain an understanding as to how others would handle it. Some clearly indicated they would handle it as I would. Others indicated they would do nothing. I can live with that.

It obvious that others have similar questions as well due to similar threads being started. To characterize one's ability to make fundamental calls based on this scenario is unfair in my opinion.

For the record, I would very much enjoy the opportunity to work with you.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rev.Ref63

I am not offended that people would disagree at all. However, many seemed to understand and agree with me that something should have been done. It was the misrepresentation and the misunderstanding of the scenario that prompted me to continue this discussion for clarity sake.

I am not misrepresenting anything. I am responding to what you said and I was not the only person that took a similar position. I am not sure why you are picking on me (maybe because I keep responding to this thread. WWWWHHHHHYYYYYYYYYYYYY???????)?

Originally Posted by Rev.Ref63

Also, I am not trying to justify how I "feel." I am trying to gain an understanding as to how others would handle it. Some clearly indicated they would handle it as I would. Others indicated they would do nothing. I can live with that.

It obvious that others have similar questions as well due to similar threads being started. To characterize one's ability to make fundamental calls based on this scenario is unfair in my opinion.

Rev,

Call what you feel is right. I gave you my opinion, I stand by that opinion and I will continue to voice my opinion in similar fashion. If you feel I do not like what I have to say to you, feel free like many others claim they do and ignore them. I am not the person that is going to hold you accountable for what you call anyway.

Peace

[Rev.Ref63]

I'll let your post stand as the last word. Thanks for the time and effort you put into this discussion.

My son lives in northern Illinois. He and his wife are expecting our first grandchild. Perhaps when we get up that way to see them, I'll have an opportunity to catch a high school game with you and we can laugh about this. That is, if you ever work in the Joliet area.

[JRutledge]

I have games in multiple parts of the state. I am working in New Lenox on Friday and in near the Peoria area on Saturday. I will be working in Bloomington around Christmas again; we will just have to see. After all this is a funny conversation to some extent. I did not expect the issues to turn the way they did.

Peace

[Rev.Ref63]

I am working around Marion, IL (down state) in February of next year. I worked as Assistant Pastor in a church there several years ago, and the Christian school is hosting a tournament that they've asked me to help officiate. I don't get the opportunity to do many Christian school games so I am looking forward to it.

BTW, I was raised in Lincoln, IL and went to college in East Peoria.