Throw-In Violation - When to Call?

In the past week, I've had two situations occur which are similar to NFHS 9.2.2 Situation C. They occur as follows:

After a made basket by Team B, A1 grabs the ball and moves towards the end line as if to perform a throw-in. A1 never legally steps out of bounds before passing the ball to A2. A2 then begins to dribble up court.

Do I have an immediate violation or do I continue my 5-second count? Would there be a difference if in (A), Team A continues to play as if the ball was legally put in play and in (B), A1 yells to A2 to come back and throw the ball in?

In game 1, I continued my 5-second count. Game 2 had my partner blow the whistle immediately. Looking at the case book ruling for 9.2.2 (Sit. C), I would say that I was correct to continue the 5-second count. The exception would be if Team A makes a basket or Team B gains control prior to the 5-seconds elapsing, at which point I would call the violation even though 5 seconds had not elapsed. That being said, I won’t be surprised at all if you guys tell me I am way off base!

P.S. I'm new to the H.S. level of officiating, so I probably will have a bunch more questions for everyone.

Originally Posted by Raida357

In the past week, I've had two situations occur which are similar to NFHS 9.2.2 Situation C. They occur as follows:

After a made basket by Team B, A1 grabs the ball and moves towards the end line as if to perform a throw-in. A1 never legally steps out of bounds before passing the ball to A2. A2 then begins to dribble up court.

Do I have an immediate violation or do I continue my 5-second count?

P.S. I'm new to the H.S. level of officiating, so I probably will have a bunch more questions for everyone.

That was a tough read, I'll attempt to answer what I could comprehend.

The penalty for 9-2-2 is that the ball becomes dead when the violation or technical foul occurs.

Welcome to the board!

[truerookie]

Welcome aboard Raida 357- Do you have change for fifteen cents?

(1) What level? Sometimes at the pee-wee level players are designated on who takes the ball oob

(2) Ask yourself did the player step completely out of bounds? If not blow the whistle and have them complete the throw-in

Sometimes players may get confused at the lower level. Take note and learn from it.

[rpirtle]

I'd allow the thrower to throw the ball even though he / she never got OOB. And since I started my 5-second count when the ball was at his / her disposal I would continue my throw-in count. I'd try to help them understand that they didn't complete the throw-in. But I might have a 5-second violation before they can recover and do it over. But that's just me...Good question...

[M&M Guy]

Raida357 - welcome to the forum. Hopefully you'll learn a lot while you're here. (Some of it may actually be basketball-related. )

What level did this happen?

The reason I ask is that at lower levels, such as grade school, I would be more apt to believe it was simple confusion by the young players. Therefore, I would blow my whistle, tell them they need to do it the right way, and give them back the ball for the throw-in. If they continue to do it, I would call the violation.

At the higher levels (HS and beyond), I would treat it a little differently. At that level the players should be well aware of the rules, so as soon as A2 starts dribbling up court, I would call the violation.

[Splute]

Welcome and good question.
I consider this an immediate violation. It is no different than the thrower-in being OOB and stepping inbounds before he passes the ball; a violation.

As others have mentioned, I believe you should consider the level of play and use common sense in all situations.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

At the higher levels (HS and beyond), I would treat it a little differently. At that level the players should be well aware of the rules, so as soon as A2 starts dribbling up court, I would call the violation.

Of course. You call the violation when it happens. If the FED wanted us to delay the call, they'd have written something into the rules a la FT violations by the defense.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Raida357

In the past week, I've had two situations occur which are similar to NFHS 9.2.2 Situation C. They occur as follows:

After a made basket by Team B, A1 grabs the ball and moves towards the end line as if to perform a throw-in. A1 never legally steps out of bounds before passing the ball to A2. A2 then begins to dribble up court.

Do I have an immediate violation or do I continue my 5-second count? Would there be a difference if in (A), Team A continues to play as if the ball was legally put in play and in (B), A1 yells to A2 to come back and throw the ball in?

In game 1, I continued my 5-second count. Game 2 had my partner blow the whistle immediately. Looking at the case book ruling for 9.2.2 (Sit. C), I would say that I was correct to continue the 5-second count. The exception would be if Team A makes a basket or Team B gains control prior to the 5-seconds elapsing, at which point I would call the violation even though 5 seconds had not elapsed. That being said, I won’t be surprised at all if you guys tell me I am way off base!

P.S. I'm new to the H.S. level of officiating, so I probably will have a bunch more questions for everyone.

This play was discussed on this (iirc) forum several years ago. The regulars split into three camps: (a) immediate violation; (b) continue the 5-secpnd count; (c) do-over.

After our discussions, FED issued the case play 9.2.2C (although the number may have been different) to show that those in camp (a) were correct.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Of course. You call the violation when it happens. If the FED wanted us to delay the call, they'd have written something into the rules a la FT violations by the defense.

Ooh...I love it when you talk French to me.

[Ref in PA]

As soon as it is apparent that Team A is not going to make a correct throw-in, call the violation. Example A1 not completely oob throws to A2 who being dribbling up the court. Call it then and there.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Ooh...I love it when you talk French to me.

Not me.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Not me.

Efficiency; I love being able to get two people with one dig.

Originally Posted by truerookie

(1) What level? Sometimes at the pee-wee level players are designated on who takes the ball oob

Both occurred during 8th grade games, late in the season.

Thanks to everyone for the quick response! It looks like the majority say blow the whistle immediately.

However, I'm still a bit confused. The case play for 9.2.2c indicates the made basket should be cancelled. If the violation were whistled immediately, I don't see how a basket could have been scored. That's the root of my confusion. The other part that gets me is that all the violations/penalties seem to reference a player who is has obtained legal throw-in position, and in this case the player has not yet done that.

[Lcubed48]

Originally Posted by Raida357

Thanks to everyone for the quick response! It looks like the majority say blow the whistle immediately.

However, I'm still a bit confused. The case play for 9.2.2c indicates the made basket should be cancelled. If the violation were whistled immediately, I don't see how a basket could have been scored. That's the root of my confusion. The other part that gets me is that all the violations/penalties seem to reference a player who is has obtained legal throw-in position, and in this case the player has not yet done that.

Is this the root of your confusion - the fact that the situation makes mention of two made baskets?
The made basket that is cancelled is the goal that the situation says that Team B scores at the end of the fast break following the illegal throw in and prior to whistle being sounded for the violation. The made basket that Team A scores at the beginning of the situation is legal.