correctable error?

[welref]

B1 is fouled by A1 during a field goal try with 3 seconds remaining in the 4th quarter.Team A is up by 2 points. By mistake, the official steps in and says 1-1 instead of 2 FT's. B1 shoots the first FT and misses the FT attempt. B2 secures the rebound and scores a 2 pt basket on a tap before time expires. AFter time expired to end the fourth quarter, the scorer then notifys the referee that B1 should had shot 2 FT's instead of a 1-1. The referee then begins the OT period by giving B1 his second FT and play continues from there. Was this correctable error administered properly? Rule reference for this sit. will be appreciated.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by welref

B1 is fouled by A1 during a field goal try with 3 seconds remaining in the 4th quarter.Team A is up by 2 points. By mistake, the official steps in and says 1-1 instead of 2 FT's. B1 shoots the first FT and misses the FT attempt. B2 secures the rebound and scores a 2 pt basket on a tap before time expires. AFter time expired to end the fourth quarter, the scorer then notifys the referee that B1 should had shot 2 FT's instead of a 1-1. The referee then begins the OT period by giving B1 his second FT and play continues from there. Was this correctable error administered properly? Rule reference for this sit. will be appreciated.

Before I can answer this, I need to know who was shooting, A or B.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Before I can answer this, I need to know who was shooting, A or B.

I'm not sure what difference it makes (assuming the play is "correct" that the error is 1-1 v. 2, and not 1-1 v. 0 for a PC foul).

In any event, start the OT with the FT, then resume with a jump ball.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I'm not sure what difference it makes (assuming the play is "correct" that the error is 1-1 v. 2, and not 1-1 v. 0 for a PC foul).

In any event, start the OT with the FT, then resume with a jump ball.

How can this FT be part of the OT, rather than part of the 4th quarter?

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I'm not sure what difference it makes (assuming the play is "correct" that the error is 1-1 v. 2, and not 1-1 v. 0 for a PC foul).

In any event, start the OT with the FT, then resume with a jump ball.

I'd like to start off with JR's smart-alek "Say WHAT?? "

but after being wrong twice in an hour yesterday, I'm not going to be that glib. BUt I really think I'm right that it makes a huge difference, and your assumption is a huge one.

If B1 was shooting, it was correct to give the second shot. If A1 was shooting, then PC and the second shot was NOT correct. Um... right??

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

I'd like to start off with JR's smart-alek "Say WHAT?? "

but after being wrong twice in an hour yesterday, I'm not going to be that glib. BUt I really think I'm right that it makes a huge difference, and your assumption is a huge one.

If B1 was shooting, it was correct to give the second shot. If A1 was shooting, then PC and the second shot was NOT correct. Um... right??

We are told in the OP that B1 was awarded 1-1, rather than 2. I read that this means 2 shots was the proper penalty. So who the shooter was is not relevant, is it? IOW, it is a given that it should have been two shots.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by just another ref

We are told in the OP that B1 was awarded 1-1, rather than 2. I read that this means 2 shots was the proper penalty. So who the shooter was is not relevant, is it?

It doesn't say who was shooting, so if A was shooting, then 2 shots is not the proper penalty and B1 being awarded 1-1 rather than 2 was an uber-mistake. A mistake with a mistaken correction. The reason I'm wondering is that normally A is the team with the ball, and since this was written backward of that, I'm just wondering if everyone got totally confused when the foul was given out, forgetting that a PC foul gets no shots, which is after all a fairly common and completely understandable mistake.

[welref]

B1 was shooting

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by welref

B1 was shooting

Okay, fine. Forget I said anhything.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Okay, fine. Forget I said anhything.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by welref

B1 is fouled by A1 during a field goal try

I can see where the confusion comes in - usually A is considered on offense. But welref is saying B1 is shooting, and is fouled by A1.

Going back to the original sitch - team A is up by 2 points, team B is shooting and gets fouled, official mistakenly awards 1-and-1 instead of 2 shots to B. B misses the FT, gets the rebound and scores, to tie up the game. Somewhere right after that, the horn sounds, then the table informs the officials that B should've had 2 shots, not a 1-and-1.

What we don't know is exactly what happened after the put-back basket and before the final horn. In order the officials to correct the error, it must be discovered during the first dead ball following the clock starting. So, the clock started with the rebound, the basket by B counts, but when did the horn go off? If it went off while A was getting the ball for the throw-in, we can correct the error. But, if A had the ball, and had already thrown it in, or was in the process of throwing it in, aren't we past the time allowed to correct the error?

[FrankHtown]

I tend to believe to free throw should be part of the 4th quarter, not administered to start the overtime. 5.6 Comment A states "The free throw(s) is a part of that quarter or extra period and, if a tie is involved, the result of the free throw(s) will determine whether additional play is required."

5.6 Comment B relates to a technical foul called after the ball has become dead to end a quarter. If the score is tied, you start the overtime with 2 free throws and the ball for the offended team. If the score is not tied, you administer the free throws as part of the 4th quarter, to determine whether an overtime is necessary.

NF rules....

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

IWhat we don't know is exactly what happened after the put-back basket and before the final horn. In order the officials to correct the error, it must be discovered during the first dead ball following the clock starting. So, the clock started with the rebound, the basket by B counts, but when did the horn go off? If it went off while A was getting the ball for the throw-in, we can correct the error. But, if A had the ball, and had already thrown it in, or was in the process of throwing it in, aren't we past the time allowed to correct the error?

That would be correct...if the period ended prior to A having the ball ready for throw-in, then it is correctable. If A is ready to throw in prior to the quarter ending, then the ball has become dead then live again, and it is too late to correct the error.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I can see where the confusion comes in - usually A is considered on offense. But welref is saying B1 is shooting, and is fouled by A1.

Going back to the original sitch - team A is up by 2 points, team B is shooting and gets fouled, official mistakenly awards 1-and-1 instead of 2 shots to B. B misses the FT, gets the rebound and scores, to tie up the game. Somewhere right after that, the horn sounds, then the table informs the officials that B should've had 2 shots, not a 1-and-1.

What we don't know is exactly what happened after the put-back basket and before the final horn. In order the officials to correct the error, it must be discovered during the first dead ball following the clock starting. So, the clock started with the rebound, the basket by B counts, but when did the horn go off? If it went off while A was getting the ball for the throw-in, we can correct the error. But, if A had the ball, and had already thrown it in, or was in the process of throwing it in, aren't we past the time allowed to correct the error?

Very good point, once A has the ball for throw-in that ball is live and now it is too late to correct. Assuming that B makes the put back just as time expires, however, and this error is still correctable...NFHS 10.5 indicates that "points scored, consumed time and additional activity...shall not be nullified", so we can't wipe the two points off. So now we have a tie game going to overtime...the question then is do we attempt this free throw as part of the 4th quarter, or does it start the overtime...my gut tells me that we start the OT with one free throw and then a jump ball, does not seem right that we would penalize A by rewarding B with 2 points PLUS another free throw, but I don't see this specifically addressed in the new casebook..

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by FrankHtown

I tend to believe to free throw should be part of the 4th quarter, not administered to start the overtime. 5.6 Comment A states "The free throw(s) is a part of that quarter or extra period and, if a tie is involved, the result of the free throw(s) will determine whether additional play is required."

5.6 Comment B relates to a technical foul called after the ball has become dead to end a quarter. If the score is tied, you start the overtime with 2 free throws and the ball for the offended team. If the score is not tied, you administer the free throws as part of the 4th quarter, to determine whether an overtime is necessary.

NF rules....

I hear you Frank, but since 5.6A does not specifically mention correctable errors, I would be hesitant to apply it in this case...not saying you are wrong, I would just like to see this specific case addressed before I would apply this...I will grant that it does seem to make sense to make it part of the 4th quarter, it just seems grossly unfair to team A in the example, we just gave B a 3 point play because of our error? And decided the game because of it?