Throw-in violation or OOB violation?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

That's a point I suppose. Good point. Hmmm... Okay, I think that it's a throw-in violation on the basis that when A2 stepped oob, before retrieving the ball, the ball became dead. Or when A2 reached through the plane before touching the ball. Or when the ball never crossed inbounds before it was touched by A2. Yup, that's my story and I"m sticking to it. Throw-in violation, ball to Bl at the point where it was thrown.

OK, let's modify the play a little bit to isolate the real question that is being asked in this thread:

A1 steps OOB for a throw-in following a made goal by B. A1 passes the ball on the OOB side of the boundary plane to the corner of the court where A2 catches the ball while it is still on the OOB side of the boundary plane. A2 also has one foot inbounds and one foot touching the OOB line (but on the side line).

This play removes the issue of the player being OOB during the throwin and makes it a question solely about whether catching the ball before it crosses the line takes precedence over catching the ball while the player has OOB status.
A2's OOB location could just as well be the endline but then that would introduce the possibility of A1 trying to pass to A2 for a legal throwin but A2 didn't get all the way OOB....so I wanted to eliminate that from the equation:

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

OK, let's modify the play a little bit to isolate the real question that is being asked in this thread:

A1 steps OOB for a throw-in following a made goal by B. A1 passes the ball on the OOB side of the boundary plane to the corner of the court where A2 catches the ball while it is still on the OOB side of the boundary plane. A2 also has one foot inbounds and one foot touching the OOB line (but on the side line).

This play removes the issue of the player being OOB during the throwin and makes it a question solely about whether catching the ball before it crosses the line takes precedence over catching the ball while the player has OOB status.
A2's OOB location could just as well be the endline but then that would introduce the possibility of A1 trying to pass to A2 for a legal throwin but A2 didn't get all the way OOB....so I wanted to eliminate that from the equation:

Frankly Camron, I really don't care. There's a violation in there somewhere. I'm blowing my whistle, giving the ball to B, and getting on with the game. This scenario just constitutes overthinking, IMO.

[Lotto]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Frankly Camron, I really don't care. There's a violation in there somewhere. I'm blowing my whistle, giving the ball to B, and getting on with the game. This scenario just constitutes overthinking, IMO.

...and switching the arrow if the throw-in happened to be an AP throw-in.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Frankly Camron, I really don't care. There's a violation in there somewhere. I'm blowing my whistle, giving the ball to B, and getting on with the game. This scenario just constitutes overthinking, IMO.

Juulie's right (as usual). I don't care if you call it a balk or icing, blow the damn whistle and get on with the game. Yeah - like some coach is going to know the intricacies of the rules down to this level.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

I don't care if you call it a balk or icing,

Does the TBA have a special mechanic for those calls? Gotta get it right, if I"m gonna be working with you!

[RushmoreRef]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Juulie's right (as usual). I don't care if you call it a balk or icing, blow the damn whistle and get on with the game. Yeah - like some coach is going to know the intricacies of the rules down to this level.

Agree with the above but like questions like this...makes you think and keeps me coming back to visit the site. There are a lot of topics on here that you could make up an answer to and no one would be the wiser...I think it's the effort of most who post here to be "correct" on rules and interpretations that makes it fun to post and read here.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Frankly Camron, I really don't care. There's a violation in there somewhere. I'm blowing my whistle, giving the ball to B, and getting on with the game. This scenario just constitutes overthinking, IMO.

But the difference in the throwin spot could matter....2 seconds to go in a 1 point game and the team getting the ball is the team down by one. Do they want the ball literally in the corner (the hardest place form which to make a throwin) or at the FT lane extended...perhaps on the other side where they have a great play to run. The one you chose could have a dramatic impact.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

But the difference in the throwin spot could matter....2 seconds to go in a 1 point game and the team getting the ball is the team down by one. Do they want the ball literally in the corner (the hardest place form which to make a throwin) or at the FT lane extended...perhaps on the other side where they have a great play to run. The one you chose could have a dramatic impact.

As Howard says, "Call me when you call that one." IOW, I'm gonna spend my energy worrying about other more likely difficulties.

[FrankHtown]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

As Howard says, "Call me when you call that one." IOW, I'm gonna spend my energy worrying about other more likely difficulties.

Interesting topic discussion, but Julie is right.


And if it comes down to 1.5 seconds left in the McDonald's All_American super bowl of basketball, nationally televised game, with hundreds of millions watching, and a 7th grade "C" coach's job is on the line......I'll defer to whatever my partner calls.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

As Howard says, "Call me when you call that one." IOW, I'm gonna spend my energy worrying about other more likely difficulties.

I certainly understand this sentiment and agree that this particular situation isn't very likely.

However, just as the NFHS test is tough because of the situations and how it requires you to actually know the rule, these posts are what make this board interesting and worth coming to. I know for me (and I've been absent since last spring until recently) I love this forum just because of these discussions. Not because I think I'll face this particular situation, but because understanding how to think through this situation and others like it help regardless of what scenario unfolds.

That, and is the board really so crazy-full of info and fast-moving threads that we can't have a meaningless, overly-analytical discussion?!?

[Rufus]

Day late and a dollar short to this discussion, and don't know if this helps or not since this case doesn't specify that the inbounds pass remains OOB, but here's the wording from the NFHS website:

SITUATION 3: During an alternating-possession throw-in for Team A, thrower A1 passes the ball directly on the court where it contacts (a) A2 or (b) B2, while he/she is standing on a boundary line. RULING: Out-of-bounds violation on (a) A2; (b) B2. The player was touched by the ball while out of bounds, thereby ending the throw-in. The alternating-possession arrow is reversed and pointed toward Team B's basket when the throw-in ends (when A2/B2 is touched by the ball). A throw-in is awarded at a spot nearest the out-of-bounds violation for (a) Team B; (b) Team A. (4-42-5; 6-4-4; 9-2-2; 9-3-2)

Hope that helps.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Day late and a dollar short to this discussion, and don't know if this helps or not since this case doesn't specify that the inbounds pass remains OOB, but here's the wording from the NFHS website:

SITUATION 3: During an alternating-possession throw-in for Team A, thrower A1 passes the ball directly on the court where it contacts (a) A2 or (b) B2, while he/she is standing on a boundary line. RULING: Out-of-bounds violation on (a) A2; (b) B2. The player was touched by the ball while out of bounds, thereby ending the throw-in. The alternating-possession arrow is reversed and pointed toward Team B's basket when the throw-in ends (when A2/B2 is touched by the ball). A throw-in is awarded at a spot nearest the out-of-bounds violation for (a) Team B; (b) Team A. (4-42-5; 6-4-4; 9-2-2; 9-3-2)

Hope that helps.

And now this has me re-thinking the entire thread - how can A1 be standing OOB when he/she received the ball and not have already violated?

Argh.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

As Howard says, "Call me when you call that one." IOW, I'm gonna spend my energy worrying about other more likely difficulties.

I'm actually quite happy for you to feel that way! For as rare as this is likely to be (but not really that improbable) there can be other things more worthty spending effort and thought on.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

But the difference in the throwin spot could matter....2 seconds to go in a 1 point game and the team getting the ball is the team down by one. Do they want the ball literally in the corner (the hardest place form which to make a throwin) or at the FT lane extended...perhaps on the other side where they have a great play to run. The one you chose could have a dramatic impact.

This is exactly the point. You can't say "who cares just put the ball in" if you don't know where to put the ball in. Does it always make a huge difference to the game? No. Might it eventually make a huge difference to the game? Yes. Does it always make sense to know where the ball goes regardless of whether it makes any difference to the game? I think so.

edit...I get third place!!

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Frankly Camron, I really don't care. There's a violation in there somewhere. I'm blowing my whistle, giving the ball to B, and getting on with the game. This scenario just constitutes overthinking, IMO.

Where does B get the ball for the throw-in?

What if there's 1.5 seconds left in a tie game? Would it then matter where B gets the throw-in?

I think there's really no discussion on whether it's a violation, it's just which type of violation, and therefore, where is the ball put in play.