Personal Flagrant Mechanic

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by kbilla

I believe the signal (NFHS) would just be the intentional foul signal and then verbally you would indicate that the player is ejected from the game...you would also obviously inform the coach and the player...ncaa (men) has an additional signal for an intentional foul with excessive contact, but the protocol would be the same otherwise I believe...

Consider this . . .

B1 flagrantly shoves A1 during a shot, and you're planning to eject him. You give the intentional foul signal, wait for things to calm down, then you report the foul to the bench. You now tell the coach that, even though you only signalled an intentional foul, B1 is DQed for the rest of the game. Have fun with that one.

When I eject, I either give the "door point" at the spot or wait to report it verbally at the table.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

Consider this . . .

B1 flagrantly shoves A1 during a shot, and you're planning to eject him. You give the intentional foul signal, wait for things to calm down, then you report the foul to the bench. You now tell the coach that, even though you only signalled an intentional foul, B1 is DQed for the rest of the game. Have fun with that one.

When I eject, I either give the "door point" at the spot or wait to report it verbally at the table.

How is that going to be any more difficult than just signalling a regular personal foul initially and then going over to explain to the coach that his player is DQ'd? Either way not an easy situation, but you do what you have to do...I don't believe that pointing to the door or anywhere else for that matter is a FED/NCAA mechanic either is it? Of course not, but I use that one too!

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by kbilla

How is that going to be any more difficult than just signalling a regular personal foul initially and then going over to explain to the coach that his player is DQ'd?

The difference is this: if you signal an intentional foul, and then eject the player, you are applying a penalty that does not apply to an intentional foul. Now you must explain the discrepancy.

If you signal a personal foul, and then eject the player, you can still rule that the foul was flagrant. Since there is no distinct mechanic for signaling a flagrant foul, and every flagrant foul is either personal or technical, then a reasonable approach would be to signal personal foul and then to further specify 'flagrant' when you arrive at the table.

The point is that you shouldn't deal with the lack of a flagrant foul mechanic by signaling something that the foul isn't, namely an intentional foul (nor should you signal any kind of violation, double foul, or anything else this foul isn't). But it IS a personal (or technical) foul, so it's not misleading to signal that.

I personally like adding the "toss" mechanic, but I'm a baseball guy; the official's manual doesn't specify that.

[kbilla]

[QUOTE=mbyron]The difference is this: if you signal an intentional foul, and then eject the player, you are applying a penalty that does not apply to an intentional foul. Now you must explain the discrepancy.

I understand your point, I honestly do, BUT...if I ever encountered a coach who knew the difference in penalty administration between the two, I personally would have no problem saying to a coach "I decided that the foul rose above the definition of an intentional foul due to the severe/violent nature"......even easier if you confer with your partners "coach my partner saw a shove in the back that I didn't see" - JUST EXAMPLES...in 10+ yrs of high school varsity basketall though I have yet to encounter that coach who knew the difference At the point that you DQ their player, they are more worried about a)arguing with you about what the kid did to get tossed and/or b)what the hell they are going to do in terms of subbing, etc, whether or not you used the correct mechanic for your prelim signal is probably pretty low on their list of *****es at that point..That being said though I understand what you are saying that it is not "technically" correct, although as I think I've said before neither is the finger to the locker room technically correct....problem is it is not the type of mechanic that you use enough to effectively change something that you have done...I think I can only remember two flagrant fouls in 10 yrs where this would be an issue outside of middle school ball....I'll note it though, thanks to everyone...even you JR.....

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by kbilla

I'll note it though, thanks to everyone...even you JR.....

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Aw come on that was my attempt at reconciliation! I appreciate anyone who can help me be a better official, but there have to be standards of decency and respect even among officials don't there? Even on a message board?!?!