[kbilla]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

kbilla -- let's see if I can summarize for you, using a slightly different vocabulary. I'll capitalize the names of the types of fouls so you can differentiate when I'm describing and when I'm naming.

First of all , there's the Intentional Foul. There are two sub-categories of Intentional Fouls. There's the Intentional Foul to stop the clock. This foul is a foul committed on purpose in order to stop the clock. In order to be called Intentional, it must be not a basketball play, not a play on the ball, and so on. It doesn't need to be excessive contact. Examples are two hands on the back or on one shoulder, or grabbing the jersey from the back or side.

Then there's the "excessive contact" Intentional Foul. This foul doesn't have to be on-purpose, just a reckless play on the ball, for example a body slam or a hard two-handed whack that aims for the ball, but hits the head by mistake. Remember, it doesn't have to be done on purpose. It doesn't have to be intended to be violent or excessive. The excess is usually accidental or careless.

Regarding contact, Flagrant fouls are violent or savage contact that constitutes fighting. It's not about basketball anymore, it's just me getting a piece of you, so to speak. Even an Intentional foul that's reckless but intended to stop the clock isn't flagrant. Even if the contact is really, really rough, unless it constitutes fighting, it's just an Intentional, and never Flagrant or Technical.

All those definitions are with regard to contact during a live ball.

Absoultely I agree with 100% of what you are saying. I am not claiming that an intentional foul IS a flagrant foul..by no means! All I am saying is that every flagrant foul I have ever encountered has been ALSO intentional, so my preliminary signal is always an intentional foul, THEN I sort out whether or not it is flagrant - how do you have "violent contact" without it being "excessive" (one definition of an intentional foul)? Punch someone in the face but only do it once? Maybe this is not the intention of the Fed to use the mechanic in this way (open to debate IMO), but this method a) Achieves the exact same result as NOT giving the intentional foul signal preliminarily and b) Communicates that the foul is "in excess of" a garden variety personal foul right from your preliminary signal....again if you are talking about a fight then you probably aren't going to have the chance to give ANY preliminary signal b/c you are going to be in a scrum or running away from one, so the mechanic itself sort of goes out the window at that point...but a flagrant foul does not apply only in a fight situation...would a two handed shove in the back on a player going in for a layup be considered flagrant to you? It probably would to me depending on the severity, but again this is why I believe you need to see these things develop in the context of each game before deciding on which way to go...