Personal Flagrant Mechanic

[Idaho]

What's your preferred mechanic when reporting to the table? Is it just verbal since there's no prescribed signal?

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Idaho

What's your preferred mechanic when reporting to the table? Is it just verbal since there's no prescribed signal?

I believe the signal (NFHS) would just be the intentional foul signal and then verbally you would indicate that the player is ejected from the game...you would also obviously inform the coach and the player...ncaa (men) has an additional signal for an intentional foul with excessive contact, but the protocol would be the same otherwise I believe...

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by kbilla

I believe the signal (NFHS) would just be the intentional foul signal and then verbally you would indicate that the player is ejected from the game...

You are describing what is sometimes called the "cross and toss". But this is not really the NFHS mechanic. The simple fact is that there IS NO SIGNAL for a flagrant foul in NFHS. It's not the intentional signal, because intentional fouls are not flagrant fouls.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

You are describing what is sometimes called the "cross and toss". But this is not really the NFHS mechanic. The simple fact is that there IS NO SIGNAL for a flagrant foul in NFHS. It's not the intentional signal, because intentional fouls are not flagrant fouls.

by definition that is correct, an intentional foul doesn't NEED to be flagrant, but wouldn't all flagrant fouls by definition be intentional? i don't have my book in front of me with the exact wording, but it would stand to reason to me. you are correct though that there is no signal for a flagrant foul per se, i was just making the assumption that if you have a flagrant foul, then it must have been intentional...so you aren't really signaling a flagrant foul, you are signaling that the foul was intentional, and on top of that you have the modifier that it is flagrant, for which there is no signal..

[Adam]

Originally Posted by kbilla

I believe the signal (NFHS) would just be the intentional foul signal and then verbally you would indicate that the player is ejected from the game...you would also obviously inform the coach and the player...ncaa (men) has an additional signal for an intentional foul with excessive contact, but the protocol would be the same otherwise I believe...

Nope. there is no flagrant signal. Call the personal and report it as a flagrant when you get to the table.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Nope. there is no flagrant signal. Call the personal and report it as a flagrant when you get to the table.

Again, while technically correct, I believe the better mechanic is to call the intentional first. I cannot think of a scenario where you would have a flagrant foul that NOT an intentional personal foul (or a technical foul which is not the case as presented here), can anyone??? If we can agree on this, then it can't be said that it is "wrong" to give the intentional signal....This also buys you time to replay the play in your head, perhaps huddle with your partners if necessary to discuss, before making the decision that it is a flagrant foul and the player is leaving...

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by kbilla

I cannot think of a scenario where you would have a flagrant foul that NOT an intentional personal foul

You really have never had a situation where contact was excessive but not performed "on purpose"?

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

You really have never had a situation where contact was excessive but not performed "on purpose"?

Excessive contact that was not intentional to the point where I would eject a player? No never. Nor have I ever seen this. I have had hard fouls with a player going for the ball, but the small handful of flagrants (non-technical) that I have had in 13+ years have been shoves in the back, going for the head on a layup attempt, those types of things....I have never seen a player make a legitimate attempt at the ball (non-intentional) and foul a player so hard that I would consider it flagrant...

[SmokeEater]

Originally Posted by kbilla

I cannot think of a scenario where you would have a flagrant foul that NOT an intentional personal foul (or a technical foul which is not the case as presented here), can anyone???

How about slanderous or racial comments toward another player? Its not an intentional personal but certainly should be flagrant. IMO

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

How about slanderous or racial comments toward another player? Its not an intentional personal but certainly should be flagrant. IMO

flagrant technical foul

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

It's wrong to give the intentional foul signal for a flagrant foul.

There, I just said it.

And if you refuse to believe that, just open your rule book to page 32 and read rules 4-19-3 and 4-19-4.

Intentional fouls and flagrant fouls are two completely different types of fouls, and never the twain shall meet.

Would you use the "traveling" signal to show a "3 seconds" violation?

Btw, in rule 4-19-4, you'll find wording that says that flagrant fouls may or may not be intentional in nature, By "intentional", the FED is talking about the adjective describing the "act", not the "name" of the foul.

Without having my book in front of me are you going to tell me that I cannot have an intentional foul that is flagrant? Or are you saying that what may have started as an intentional foul can BECOME flagrant and therefore is no longer intentional by definition? This is semantics to me....the penalty is exactly the same is it not?

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by kbilla

the penalty is exactly the same is it not?

No, it is not. Flagrant includes an ejection.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by kbilla

Without having my book in front of me are you going to tell me that I cannot have an intentional foul that is flagrant? Or are you saying that what may have started as an intentional foul can BECOME flagrant and therefore is no longer intentional by definition? This is semantics to me....the penalty is exactly the same is it not?

Here you go:

Originally Posted by 4.19.3

An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul which neutralizes an opponent's obvious advantageous position. Contact away from the ball or when not making a legitimate attempt to play the ball or a player, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting, shall be intentional. Intentional fouls may or may not be premeditated and are not based solely on the severity of the act. A foul also shall be ruled intentional if while playing the ball a player causes excessive contact with an opponent.

Originally Posted by 4.19.4

A flagrant foul may be a personal or technical foul of a violent or savage nature, or a technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable conduct. It may or may not be intentional. If personal, it involves, but is not limited to violent contact such as: striking, kicking and kneeing. If technical, it involves dead-ball contact or noncontact at any time which is extreme or persistent, vulgar or abusive conduct. Fighting is a flagrant act.

Perhaps the bolded sentence in 4.19.4 is confusing: it cannot mean that a flagrant foul might or might not be an intentional foul. The definitions of the foul types are quite distinct, so it's not the case that one could be a subset of the other (the way that common fouls are a subset of personal fouls, for example).

You also cannot have an intentional foul become a flagrant foul, although you might have one followed immediately by the other.

So, JR is correct to say that no flagrant foul is an intentional foul. It might, of course, be intentionally flagrant, but that's neither here nor there. And semantics will be important as long as words have meanings.

Questions?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by kbilla

Without having my book in front of me are you going to tell me that I cannot have an intentional foul that is flagrant?

Yes. You cannot have an "intentional flagrant" foul.

All fouls are either personal or technical. They might have a modifier -- intentional, flagrant, common, unsporting... They might also be "grouped" -- double, simultaneous, multiple.

You can't pick more than one modifier and one group to describe a foul.

[Splute]

Mean Ol' JR...

JR, do you believe there should be a signal or is the game better off without one and simply state when reporting?