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Tech on Coach situation
Had a 8th grade girls game today...partner T's up coach...real jerk of a lady. Anyway...I explain to her that she must sit for the rest of the game as per rule. She goes on to say that I don't know what I'm talking about...I tell her that she can look in the rule book. Anyway...she sits down and instructs her assistant coach to stand up. I was so taken back and couldn't place the rule about bench personnel sitting, so I allowed it. I should've ran the coach later...but I'm getting my "legs" back under me...I'm chalking it up to remembering how to blow my whistle as I've back in officiating after about a 7 year break. How would you handle this one?
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Under NO circumstances can an assistant coach stand. After what you described, I would issue a bench technical on the assistant which is also an indirect on the head coach. Normally, if I see an assistant stand or address me or my call, I immediately warn the head coach and ANY further infraction is a T. It is not your job to explain the rules to the head coach. He has a rules book just like you and is required to attend the state rules meeting(s). Rec ball / noncompetitive might require different tact. |
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case 10.5.1.E: last sentence. "...if he/she wishes to stand when permitted under the optional coaching box privileges." Furthermore, The Kansas State HS Activities Association announcements publication states "The head coach may: 1) Stand to instruct (coach) then, 2) sit down, 3) not kneel, squat, pace, or stand during a live ball." Again, there is some leniency, but if the rule was intended that the head coach could remain standing the entire game, the rule would state, "While in the confines of the coaching box, the head coach may remain standing during all live ball situations." It doesn't. It states "for the purpose of coaching". |
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Lah me......you're making up your own rules.....again. Good luck with that.:rolleyes: |
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Bottom line, I let him stand as long as he wants - until I get a visible display (inciting the crowd type). Then I inform him how my state association interprets the NFHS rule. I also will MAKE them stand if they are kneeling as I do not want to end my season or his with a knee to his head. "It isn't" applies to your state's interp as well. Unless you can show me definitively where I am wrong about this, (case, etc.), then you would be wise to open up to the possibility...... |
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Are you saying that, by virtue of being silent, a coach is not coaching? How does a coach, kneeling in his box, pose a threat to an official? |
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Next time you run a 3-man and you are the Center running up the sideline near OOB where you should be, with a coach kneeling at the sideline, you'll figure it out. :eek: |
I personally dont see where that would be considered dangerious, but thats just me. Im also not to sure that I would MAKE him stand if he was kneeling??
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Trust me. Have seen many crash and burns. |
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Is it a coincidence that KSref joined this month and Old School has been gone for about a month?
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From KCRef07: "Under NO circumstances can an assistant coach stand."
May an assistant coach, during a live ball, while the clock is running, stand to approach the scorer's table to inquire about the number of fouls on a player, or the number a time outs remaining? I don't believe that a head coach is allowed to do this? |
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Not "coaching PLAYERS". When he is "figuring out", who is he coaching at that moment? No one. This is clarified by many state associations like ours. Check with yours. I previously stated the interps. Go back a few posts. Never said anything about a T for the coach kneeling. You can say all you want until you tear an ACL because you "didn't look where you were going" one time and because a coach was kneeling where he shouldn't be. I'm not assigning fault under that circumstance, just trying to provide some useful experiential information to consider. |
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So according to your statement, if a coach never says anything, he is not a coach because he does not commit the act of coaching.
anyways... deifnition 1 : to train intensively (as by instruction and demonstration) <coach pupils> 2 : to act as coach of <coach tennis> <coach a team> |
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Do you have examples of some of the other "many state associations", and how they are similar or different? Quote:
In IL, if the coach is kneeling in the coaching box, he <B>is</B> where he's supposed to be. What happens if you tear an ACL when you trip over his leg while he's standing there coaching? |
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Are you paying that much attention to the coach and not the game, to see if he isn't saying something to his players? What if he was instructing his bench personnel and not those on the floor. You'd have a hard time convincing your assigner that this was a legit foul call. I'd like to be in the stands the first time you called this on a coach. |
You did state that is the Kansas interp. It is not the interp provided by Illinois, or by the NFHS.
Ok. Great about IL. Do you have the NFHS interp? Please share. In IL, there is no distinction between standing or kneeling, talking or being silent. To quote the state interp: "The larger concern is the continuation of unsporting behavior by bench personnel." That interp does not address the topic at hand - when a coach may stand. Do you have examples of some of the other "many state associations", and how they are similar or different? Here is one. Colorado COACHING BOX The head coach may be off the bench in front of his or her seat within the confines of the designated coaches’ box to give instructions to his or her players and/or substitutes. I thought a T is the penalty for anyone offending the coaching box rule? If KS says kneeling is not part of the rule, what penalty is in force for kneeling? Huh? KS says he may not kneel, stand, crouch if not coaching the players. In IL, if the coach is kneeling in the coaching box, he <B>is</B> where he's supposed to be. What happens if you tear an ACL when you trip over his leg while he's standing there coaching? Look, I am simply saying if a coach is kneeling it is more likely you may not see him. Especially since the box extends to the sideline, where a C should be running. If you don't believe that, then great. Next topic. I am not saying it's a T. I simply said I ask them to stand for both our safety. Remember, I said we are very lenient about the coaches box. I only use our interp if there is some commentary or gesturing that many can hear/see. If that doesn't work, then a T for unsportsmanlike. If you do it different, great. |
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Instructing players on the bench is fine. Look, it's not my rule, its the KS state rule and they want it enforced. We all do. Give me a break. I said it 10 times already - lenient - used as a tool if he begins to target the refs. Something along these lines - "Stop or we will strictly enforce the rule." If still no improvement, then tell him to sit unless directly instructing the players. If still no improvement then a T the next time he demonstrably disputes a call. Then he sits for good. |
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Then in the next sentence, you say you're lenient and give them 3 chances to comply. :confused: If a coach repeatedly stands and demonstrably disputes a call, any official, will T him up. But that's because of his actions. I'm not going to tell him he has to sit if he's not instructing his players though. (at least not until after the T:) ) |
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I think you're on to something.... |
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Look, it's handled in the pregame conference. We state what the coaches box rule is. "You can stand to instruct your players but then you must sit back down. We will give some leeway but don't use the box to address the refs." The first violation - MY game management style - gets the letter of the law enforced with a warning. The next gets the T and a permanent seat. Unless of course the F bomb or some such is dropped right off. Why argue with me about how a certain state handles the situation? I am just telling you how it is for informational purposes. Have a nice night. :rolleyes: |
KSref07,
Welcome to the forum. I think that some are being too hard on you in this thread. You will quickly find that JR always asks people to back things up with a rule citation. In fact, I would have inquired about your initial statements, if he had not. In this case you have done just that by providing the KS interpretation. We may not all agree with that viewpoint, but if that is the way it is handled in your state, that's great. (Personally, I like it, but that's not how it's done where I am. FYI soccer does exactly what KS does, not HS, but the FIFA game.) Just be aware that not every other state makes the same interp. I've learned a great deal from the people on this forum, who are from all over, one of the most important being that there are many differences from place to place. |
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I'm funny like that. If that's a local interpretation put out by a state governing body, fine. Don't try to tell me that it's a <b>rule</b> everywhere though. It isn't and never has been. Afaik, that particular interpretation hasn't ever been used anywhere outside of Kansas. |
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Please. How do you know for sure that the player didn't hit the side or bottom of the ring with the ball while screwing up a lay-up? How do you know that the player didn't throw the ball at the ring sideways from 3 feet away? If you <b>hear</b> but don't <b>see</b> a slap by a defender, do you address that with a foul also? Lah me......let's call the game by ear. It doesn't matter that you actually never <b>saw</b> what happens. Un-freaking-believable.:rolleyes: |
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KSREF --
Here's the down-low on the scene here. It may be that you've found what works for you at your level, in your area. You'll quickly learn that others on this site find that different ways work for them at their levels, in their areas. And there are those that scoff at describing the problem as being different ways in different situations. You've been told how to handle things in Kansas, and that's what you need to do. Don't worry about the argument too much. Back down gracefully by saying, "Hmm I see what you mean, I'll think about that" or some such. That helps avoid the OS references. Also, I want to thank you for continuing this discussion. We've been trying for years to figure out where Jurassic lives, and now we can rule out Kansas! |
Could it be OS reincarnated? Normally, only OS could get JR’s dander up like this.
To bad if it is. The board was beginning to be a more tranquil place. |
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I do know Iowa has, at least in the past, agreed with you with regard to kneeling. I can definitely see some basis for agreement on that issue. But to try and say "coaching" must be "active" and include talking or gesturing? That's someone at a very high level on a power trip. |
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Quite seriously, KS, you are utterly and completely wrong on what coaching is.
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The folks here seem open minded and helpful. |
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1. Iowa has only issued a directive regarding kneeling. Kneeling. Kneeling only. And that was girls only, since the boys' coaches don't even get the coaching box. I'm not even sure if they still hold to it, since I've been in Colorado now for a couple of years. 2. More importantly, Colorado does not do it the way you say we do. Read my previous post. |
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It's not "our" interpretations. It's the NFHS and NCAA's interpretations. We just cite those NFHS and NCAA interpretations. We also cite their recommended mechanics. If someone wants to pull a hissy-fit because someone else showed them that they were completely <b>WRONG</b> according to what is plainly written in the rules, case or mechanics book, too damn bad. It's the same for everybody on this forum, and that includes myself. If you're going to post utter nonsense, you <b>will</b> hear about it. If a rule is unique to one state only, then post that as such. Don't try to say that what is written in the rule book is <b>wrong</b> because their state has an exception. |
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COACHING BOX "The head coach may: 1. Stand to instruct (coach) then, 2. Sit down 3. Not kneel, squat, pace or stand during a live ball." Pretty clear to me how they define "coaching". |
Here's what I could find on Iowa's website. The Boys' and Girls' associations (yes, we have 2 here) are both going to this rule, or something very similar. I'm not a fan of this rule, but I do as the state says. This is from a memo we got earlier this season, I'll know more after I hit our state meeting here in the next couple of weeks.
"In summary, the Board approved adopting the “seat belt” bench decorum rule which is currently utilized in the boy’s game in Iowa, with two modifications. First, coaches will be allowed to stand and confer with a player(s) whenever the clock is not running. Second, the coach may rise to congratulate a disqualified player, and walk the confines of the team bench to select a replacement." |
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Ask your self why would the NFHS put qualitative language in the rule like "for the purpose of coaching his team" if they meant to allow him to stand 32 minutes? What other purpose would a head coach have to stand in the box according to you - if EVERYTHING he does is "coaching"? Hmmmmmm. Before you state someone is wrong, or his state is the only one clarifying the rule, show definitive proof. Have a nice day. |
I will tell you that PA does not interpret the coaching box activity the same as Kansas. Here, coaches are permitted to stand in the box as long as they want, observing the play on the court. As long as they stay in their box and are not chirping at the refs, they are okay. If they begin to stray or attempt to influence any calls by a ref, they will be seated via a "T".
And this dude is not OS, because we don't "hate" him yet. |
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I don't dislike anyone on here yet either, so I guess the feeling is mutual. :D |
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It's meant to let the coaches know they are allowed to stand to coach, not to stand up and work the officials. Quote:
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It sounds to me as though you are interpreting the Kansas bench rule correctly, from the passage that you quoted. Personally, I kind of like it. But it's not the NFHS interpretation, that's for sure.
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If the posted info is the correct Kansas interpretation (and I have no reason to think it isn't) then why does Kansas even have a Coaching box??? The things they are saying a coach may do are the exact things that a coach is allowed to do in states that do not allow a coaching box...the coach can stand to cheer a play, coach the team, greet a player coming out of the game, grab a player to put into the game - and then must immediately sit back down. So why have a coaching box at all?
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In post #2 of this thread, your answer to the original poster was: Quote:
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The coaching box allows the coach more latitude - to actively direct players. |
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Glad KS has taken the mystery out of it. |
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oops my bad, you are obviously quoting KS exceptions and not NFHS rules. Apparently KS feels the need to further limit coaches or remove the ability to reason from the ref.
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However, "for the purpose of coaching" is a limiting statement. My question is simply, "What other purposes, sportsmanlike or unsportsmanlike, are there for standing that are NOT permitted? Unsportsmanlike is easy. If that was the clarification other wording would have been used. Sportsmanlike purposes that would not be permitted? If none, then why not strike that phrase in total? I believe they wanted to indirectly say you can't just stand for 32 minutes like a statue because it opens the door to other bad actions. |
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The fact that Kansas is the only state that does this ought to speak volumes. BTW, are there any other Kansas refs on here that have an opinion on this? |
In KS may the head coach stand up and walk down to the end of the bench to get a drink of water from the jug that is placed down there? ;)
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He could send a student down to get it for him.
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My question: Can he lay down on the bench? |
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If it was me, I would end up falling asleep and getting a T for excessive snoring. |
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I once had a coach ask me if he could kneel on the bench. At first, I thought he meant kneel in front of the bench, but that wasn't what he was asking. I told him that if his team played bad enough that he felt only prayer would help, go right ahead. He got a smile on his face and decided to just sit.
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In reply to #47...I have not heard that Texas only calls one foul for an illegal uniform. At our meeting last week, we were instructed to penalize each player, per rule, if they enter wearing an illegal uniform, before the ball becomes live, etc etc
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I can see the comments already. "We're Not in Kansas Anymore, Toto." http://www.emerchandise.com/images/p...dTNWOZ0008.jpg |
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I understand what you are trying to do here, but you can't always disregard a rule for the sake of "game management". If you do see the dunk, but decide to "not see" it because you don't want to start the game with a tech, you are not being fair to the team that didn't dunk and violate the rules. |
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You keep quoting that rule. I do not think it means what you think it means. |
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Many. All good officials do. It's all about judgement. I see a previous comment by you about wrong and right (post #92). If that is addressed to me, keep in mind I am only sharing the KS view. It's neither wrong nor right. I am just discussing how the NFHS rule is being interped by KS and how I can see where they are coming from - and that I agree. For example, the phrase "for the purpose of coaching his team" could easily be left off if there was not intent to "qualify" what a coach can do in the box. They could have just said, "The head coach may stand in the box during a live ball - period." It is good to see some can relate to this opinion even though most of the posters cannot. Does not bother me in the least that I am in the minority opinion on this one. It's a good discussion, even for me. But "wrong"? Nope. Probably not "right" either. |
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That's what's being discussed, not the coaching box. |
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mmmmm..........I remember an old poster that used to be like that:rolleyes: |
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Also, I have yet to see another Kansas ref corroborate this. Your insistence that Colorado does this as well is also wrong. |
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