Me?;)

Call KSHSAA at 785-273-5329 and ask for Francine Martin. Refer to the publication "2007-2008 Basketball Announcements" authored by her, the head basketball administrator. Don't take a pot shot and give me shi* about corroboration.

Second, I repeated ONE TIME what I thought another poster was saying regarding CO. EXCUSE ME if I misunderstood his post.

So, you "disagree that I agree" with what my state says and you "disagree that I can see where they are coming from"? WTF?

No, what is being discussed is JUDGEMENT. Pay attention please. :)

IGNORING something is NOT judgement. Pretending to NOT SEE that pre-game dunk is NOT judgement.

So, if I understand you correctly, if you see the head coach 6 inches outside his coaching box and you don't call a T, that would be what?

A) judgement
B) ignoring a rule
C) all of the above
D) none of the above

Blatant disregard of a rule by the player (dunking) and caught up in the moment of coaching (out of box 6"), play out differently in my mind.

Yup. And <b>we're</b> questioning <b>your</b> judgment in <b>not</b> calling obvious dunks in a warmup. The consensus to date seems to be that your <b>JUDGMENT</b> is wrong.

Is that clear enough now?

When it comes time to "put up or shut up", looks to me like KSref has put up. Either call the number or quit hashing this stupid subject. This is no longer being "discussed" by anyone; it's just people trying to swing a 2x4 at somebody else.

So the coach getting "caught up" is a good reason to totally disregard a rule?

I have no dog in this fight, but it has become stupid. If the pre-game dunk is obvious to everyone in the gym, including the opposing coach, you have no choice but to call it. But if it's a borderline dunk (he's up over the rim and dinks it in or he just gets a little of the rim while trying to look cool), and you can get to the kid to say, "Hey, don't make me make a decision on that", that's even better.

The coaching box is exactly the same. If the coach is 10' onto the floor and screaming at you, you have to T him up. But if he's 6 inches out of the box and coaching, and you can quietly say, "Coach, help me out and find your box", that's even better.

I know KSref said he "never sees" a pre-game dunk; but let's give him a little benefit of the doubt, for pete's sake. You think he's going to ignore a rim-shaking dunk when the opposing coach is staring at him and pointing at the basket? I don't. So why are we trying to beat each other up over something that happens once every other season? :confused:

Naw, instead of that I just e-mailed KSHSAA and asked them if basketball coaches were <b>not</b> allowed to stand quietly within their coaching box and watch play. I explained that according to one of their officials, coaches must sit down immediately if they weren't talking, and that their "talking" also had to do with coaching and nothing else. I further explained that the penalty claimed was a technical foul. I asked further about a head coach not being able to kneel, squat, etc. or do anything else but stand within their box, and failure to do so would be a technical foul also.

It's easier that way. I can then just cut and paste the response that I'm given.

Vindication might be nigh. Or......

Well said.....

Shut up.

I do. And I do because that's exactly what he's told us he's going to do.

What part of <b>"NEVER"</b> don't you understand, Scrappy? There is <b>NO</b> benefit of the doubt involved with <b>"NEVER"</b>. It's as definitive as you could possibly get. He's already stated that he's <b>NEVER</b> going to call a dunk. Whether it's rim-shaking or not simply isn't relevant.

Yup, and that's exactly why I e-mailed KSHSAA.

Oh yeah? What about "never, ever"? You're just not using enough significant digits.

And just in the interest of full disclosure, are you saying you've never used hyperbole to make a point? No, "never, ever", I'm sure. :p

I would hope not. Also, I'd like to see him ignore a pre-game dunk that rips the backboard off the post. That would be cool. :)

Hyperbole is my middle name. If you ever deleted all of my posts containing "hyperbole", I'd probably have about 12 to date.

Hyperbole is my life.

Well, that and Twinkies....... :eek:

Scrapper, you know me and you know that what you wrote is exactly the way I would handle those situations...but where in your post do you say anything about IGNORING that "little" dunk or "NOT SEEING" it??? You (and I) would address those things and take care of them - whether it's the coach 6" out of the box or the "little" dunk - we do NOT ignore them - the way we address them is judgement. Ignoring them is not. And as my buddy Forrest would say, "That's all I have to say about that."

Fine, let me add something to the statement. While no one else has come to corroborate, no one from Kansas has refuted it, either. I really don't care one way or the other, just thought it was interesting.
Fair enough. I've misread my share of posts as well.
Really, you thought that's what I meant? I don't buy it.
Here's what I meant:
We disagree with the Kansas interpretation. We don't really dispute that it's the KS interp, we just disagree with the logic behind it. You agree with the logic behind it, therefore, we disagree with you.
If you want to just state the KS interp, fine, but if you're going to defend it be prepared to actually get disagreement. And since, as far as we can tell, KS is the only state that defines "coaching" so narrowly, be prepared for nearly unanimous disagreement.

It's called understanding the intent and purpose of the rule....more than just the letter.

No pregame dunking is truly no pregame dunking. There is no reason to accidently dunk and no legitamate reason to need to dunk on purpose in pregame to properly warm up.

OK, would that be a local or long-distance e-mail? :confused:

LOL!!

Oh, I see. I'll look up "blatant" in the rules book. :rolleyes:

The fellow asked if I ignore fouls. I said yes - good judgement requires that sometimes. He stated ignoring fouls does not relate to judgement. A blanket statement. I simply posed a scenario in which ignoring DOES equal judgement.

The reality is, a stupid dunk before a game gives no team an advantage - the rule is there to protect the equipment. It is minor. You address it by telling them not to dunk. The same goes with being 6 inches outside the box. Ok, what if he's 2 feet outside the box - is that "blatant disregard"? No.

Judgement.

No, you began by questioning my judgement in calling a coaching box infraction that my state has mandated is wrong? How presumptuous of you.

When I was a varsity coach, if you were at my varsity boys game and you called a T on my player with no warning and started the game that way, my AD and I would make sure you NEVER reffed another one of my games again.

Clear enough? :rolleyes:

By the way, Francine's email address directly is [email protected]. I want to make sure your email gets to the right person. And I expect an apology when you get her answer.

Thank you.

I will say this again - ignoring any of those situations is NOT judgement. How you choose to deal with them is where the judgement comes in...telling a coach "Hey, I really need you to stay in your box for me" is dealing with it and using judgement - ignoring the coach is not...walking over to the coach during pre-game and telling him "Coach, #45 is going to get you a T if he dunks again" is dealing with it and showing judgement - ignoring it is not.

Wow...and if I was an official in that area and had a Varsity coach and school AD that whined when a rule was enforced the way it was written, I would make sure I NEVER worked one of their games again - that way I wouldn't have to deal with that ignorance.

Symantics.

Great. We are in mutual bliss. I get a more diplomatic ref and you lose $150 per night x 20+ nights (because my varsity coaching buddies and I talk...). ;)

I told you I "hear" it and address it. Even though I addressed it I have "set aside" the rule, which is a T. This equals IGNORING THE RULE and equals using judgement. They are not mutually exclusive attributes. duh.

You had to go and say it.
http://themarketingguy.files.wordpre...wrong-tree.jpg

Apologies to my friend Dave who lived in a cave...

There once was a man named Bill Knerberly
Who oft stretched the truth speaking verbally
He couldn't admit
He often flung sh1t
But when pressed he just called it hyperbole

What if he is only watching, or perhaps kneeling? :rolleyes:

I believe the rule is there to protect the player, the equipment and the school. IMO most rules are added to the book because Coaches will not or choose not to enforce them. This also includes tucking shirts, jewelry, etc. The coach may not want to offend his star player, so he puts it off on the officials to enforce by asking for it to be added to the rules... JMO.

Why not coach the players NOT to dunk during warmups? Discipline them if they do. Save it for practice or off campus.

Did he drive a Rolls Knardley? That's a car that rolls down one hill and can hardly get up the next. http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra.../smilielol.gif

It's okay, guys. Apparently, in Kansas, they don't really want those pregame dunks called. After all, there's no advantage. (Let's not go into the potential advantages dunking might provide with crowd incitement, intimidation, etc.)

I, for one, know that if it happens in my games here in Colorado and I don't call the technical, I'll be having an unpleasant discussion with my assigner. No thanks.

So......if before a game one of your players were to go up to an opponent and punch him in the face, and the official started the game with a T instead of letting your kid off with a warning, you would impose this penalty on him? Yeah - that makes sense. :confused:

Oh please.... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Don't know what "they" want. Like one poster commented, a rim shaking dunk is one thing, a flip dunk is another. You "hear" it, they remind them to "stay off the rim".

To bad several of you refuse to embrace the concept of:

JUDGMENT

Yeah, BTW, it really intimidates the other team who has 10 guys who can dunk as welll... sheesh. And, I've really seen crowds go nuts 15 minutes before the game when a player dunks casually.....double sheesh.

That just might be effective if it is an area that is still on the stone ages where the school contract the officials directly. Anywhere that has advanced to the modern are and is using assignors will likely not have that problem. No assignor worth anything will ever question calling a T for a pre-game dunk. Without the conflict of interest, the officials are free to call the game instead of worrying if the coach might not like the call.

Francine has received my follow-up e-mail. I await her response on (1) coaches not being allowed to quietly stand within their coaching box, under penalty of a technical foul for doing so, and (2) warning players who dunk in pre-game warmups in lieu of issuing technical fouls.

I certainly will share her response with everyone when received.

Btw, I also gave her a link to this thread, so that she would have a complete overview of why I was asking.

Very clear. And I certainly hope that Scrappy, who rallied to your defense earlier, has read your philosophy stated above. Also btw, that has been pointed out to Ms. Martin too to see if that is also standard practice by coaches in Kansas.

Yoohoo, Scrappy....

Is that clear enough for you now?:D

Follow Up
 

I just received an automated e-mail response from Ms. Martin, saying that she is out of the office until Monday, Oct.29 and to deal with her assistant, Shelly Somethingorother if it's urgent. It ain't. I'll wait for Monday to see how Ms. Martin responds. We can then get it from the horse's mouth.

No, actually you get a butt-kisser who is more worried about his "20+ nights" than he is about calling the game correctly...my schedule isn't affected in the least cause you and your "varsity buddies" don't have much say over the games I work...but that's ok. You keep ignoring things and calling it judgement and you'll get those "20+" games that I wouldn't touch anyway.:cool:

Sounds like a great way to get refs who are afraid to make calls; especially against the home teams.

No wonder you're scared of coaches.

In my opinion, if Kansas wishes to limit their coaching box privilege by saying that head coaches may only stand when giving instructions to their teams, why is that a big deal? I don't see anything wrong with the state imposing that restriction. It might make the conduct better and thus the game better.

There is nothing wrong <b>IF</b> those are the explicit instructions issued by the state governing body of Kansas. Officials have to follow state directives. We'll find out Monday, won't we?

Now, what is <b>your</b> take on <b>NEVER</b> calling technical fouls for pre-game dunks?

When my AD and I call the assignor and tell him not to schedule Rust at our venue anymore, Rust will not be at our venue anymore. The school is not beholden to the assignor - just the opposite.

I'm scared of coaches? :confused: I AM a coach (once a coach always a coach) and an official.

You think Francine has time to deal with what goes on on this DB? I hope she does though.

This is what she will tell you.

Handed out at EVERY rules meeting is the following document. "2007-2008 Basketball Announcements" Published by KSHSAA basketball Administrator, Francine Martin, who puts on the meeting(s).

Page 3 - Coaching Box: "The executive Board has approved the optional six-foot (6') coaching box for the 2007-08 season. Only the HEAD COACH may be off the bench in front of his/her seat within the confines of the designated coaches' box to give instructions to his/her players and/or substitutes. The head coach may:
1) Stand to instruct (coach) then,
2) Sit down
3) Not kneel, squat,pace or stand during a live ball.

Coaches not complying are to be assessed the appropriate penalty of a technical foul. Once either a direct or indirect "T" is assessed, the coach(es) MUST comply with provisions of Rule 10-5-1 and 10-5-2 for the remainder of the game. Officials SHALL file the appropriate report on Loss of Coaching Box privilege Form (2007-08 Blue). The form may also be submitted online by logging into the officials website."

On dunks, Francine will also tell you JUDGMENT IS REQUIRED. But being the HEAD RULES ADMINISTRATOR she will also be bound to tell you to enforce the penalty - a standard answer which we all know does not fly "in real life" in many situations. At a sophomore game and a light dunk, game management will be used. In a varsity game and a rim rattler 1 minute before tipoff and a T will be assessed. THAT is how I rule on that infraction. I ignore / set aside this particular rule if I can. I have seen 3 pregame dunks in the last 10 years and never issued a T.

Yes, if Francine gives you the time of day we will find out.

This is just funny. Every AD I know, and every assigner I have ever worked for, would rip the coach a new one for b!tching about this.

"Teach your kids not to dunk in pre-game and it won't happen."

It's stupid to make the refs make this kind of decision; it's begging for trouble.

There've been a couple times when players have come close enough to make me have to decide. Both times I went to the coach and told him he might want to have a chat with the player involved.

But if it was a clear dunk, no warning is necessary.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but this whole "you can't T without a warning" crap is getting old.

NEVER said that. I said JUDGMENT IS REQUIRED. See my post right before this one to JR. And to believe diplomacy, politics, and the good ole boy network among coaches, assignors, and ADs has nothing to do with getting games at the V level, indicates naivety.

Maybe I am missing something by living in California. You guys get $150.00 per game?

$65-$75 per V game and there is usually two per night (Boys and Girls).

My assignor might just do the same...but he's going to ask why. When you say that you don't like the fact that I called a T for a pregame dunk, the discussion will be over, he's going to tell you to teach the kids not to dunk in pregame....and you just might see me on the road 2-3 more times that you would have had no you not called. ;)

I think that I'll wait and find out exactly how she responds to my very specific questions.

I'm funny like that.

You can be assured that I will post her answers also.

You did say, Maybe we're mis-reading you, but when combined with this statement , it sure looks like your intention is to never make this call regardless of the force applied to the dunk, or whether the opposing coach sees it.

Of course, "never" could simply be an example of hyperbole.

In fact, I charged a T for this just last season while working with our assignor! :eek:

What does that tell you? ;)

OOOOOOOH! :eek:

I have clarified since many times.

It was deserved???? :confused:

Did you warn for it first?

Ok.

This explains everything.

Uhmmm, that if you had been at KSRef's school he would have told on you and you would never, ever get to ref there again??

No? That's not it? OK...well then, maybe it tells us that your Assignor has more testicular fortitude than the assignor in KSRef's area?

Interesting.

The other night, I called a double foul while Team A was in posession. Everyone in the gym wanted the ball to be put in play by AP. Including my partner. I said it should be POI.

I chose not to reevaluate. ;)

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.

btw...if I was Francine whats-her-name I would not be happy with anyone putting my phone number & email address on a public forum...just saying but I hope she has a good sense of humor (and good spamware).

Great post. Just think where this country would be if we always listened to the majority.

Uhh, don't think because you hurt the team. JK! The KSHSAA numbers are all on the web along with her number. http://www.kshsaa.org/staff.html.

Being a former coach and now a ref gives special insights to the officiating game those that have not coached usually don't have. Those insights, for example, allow such refs to recognize and anticipate plays as they are developing and allows them to be ready for potential action and not be surprised. It also, in general, gives a certain rapport with other coaches that is unique.

It's not unusual that those having never been down a certain path tend to dismiss it. I think that comes from an inner feeling of inadequacy. :D

I'm getting here later but....

NO, ABSOLTUELY NOT!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe in Kansas, it's not like that everywhere.

When I lived in Tennessee, if an AD or coach made that kind of a phone call, the official they were complaining about would work the next four games there.

Good God, now I understand. Here's a coach who thinks being a coach automatically makes him a better official. He probably also thinks that his poop doesn't smell, either.

I work in a school/league-assigns-the-official system and I call the games just the same as if I had an independent assignor. Hasn't hurt my 40+ game schedule year after year.

Just read this thread tonight, but why would anyone want the responsibility of determining whether a coach is actively coaching? As long as he's in our 14-foot-box not b!tching at me or not getting in my way when I'm the center I'm a happy man.

Well, here's a Johnny come lately to the thread....

Where did I say it AUTOMATICALLY makes us better officials? Are you a little intimidated that someone can be a good coach AND a good ref? You tell me, if you had equally good refs in ALL respects, but one had the additional insight of being a varsity coach, which one would you want as a partner or to ref your game?

Where did I say I wanted the responsibility of determining.... If you read the thread, you would know this is not the case.

Great for you and your 40 game schedule. Talk to me when you log over 300 per year.

Oh and by the way, grow up.

KSRef - it is these kind of comments that are not exactly endearing you to other officials and to the LONG-TIME members of this board.

I'd suggest being less sarcastic and snarky in your posts if you expect to get along here.

I've seen some great former-coach refs and some poor ones. I've seen some great former-player refs and some poor ones. Just because you have experienced the game from another perspective doesn't make you a great official.

One question: Is this your first year officiating?

That bullsh!t may work is your state but it wouldn't fly here. Unless you could supply film that showed I had set aside a rule, my assignor would not only ignore your "request," he's likely to send me right back over there very, very soon. And, he would probably be sitting in the stands that night as well. BTW, the state association would back both of us.

Coaches and ADs have no such power here, nor should they anywhere. Such childish threats are foolish and out dated. Boy, talk about somebody on a power trip.

JR, make sure you ask Ms. Martin if it's the KHSAA's stand that pre-game dunks should be ignored. If so, ask her what other rules they have decided to ignore and if in doing so, they have given up their vote on the NFHS Basketball Rules Committee. I'm dying to hear back from her.

PS KSRef - You might want to listen to Brad. He's the administrator of this site.

And whether you want it or not I would say this fall into the category of:

If you're watching this, you're not seeing much else.

As written above, I see no way to "strictly enforce" this policy. How long a pause is allowed between sentences? (coaching "instructions")

My thought is that someone in Kansas simply had the idea to "put some teeth in it" to the point that when a coach did get out of line to draw a T, he would have absolutely no room to complain. Unfortunately, in my opinion, when you go to too much of an extreme the other way, it tends to be ounterproductive. Kinda like the speed limit 5 mph sign. Nobody ever really got into trouble for going 7 or 8 mph, did they?

dang this is entertaining as well as educational. Wish I could add something, but everytime I think of a constructive response somone beats me to it or I'm laughing so hard I forget the context of my reply.

Keep it going though. :) :)

You're saying you call 300+ games a year? Or you're saying this is how you supplement your income from your regular job as a logger?:D

Before you castigate me and delete my posts, look at the originator that caused the reaction. I have not responded to ANY post with my FIRST post being "snarky". Only when someone used vulgar langauge at me, called me stupid, etc.

15th year thank you. And how long have you been officiating?

Glad to hear officials and schedulers are all powerful in your state. I find it amusing that folks like you refuse to believe it's not the same everywhere. You must be east or west coast.

He is the president of his officials' assn in North Carolina. He is one of the best both on this forum and on the court (field too as he is also a top football official.)

BTW I believe that giving the coaches and ADs the power KSRef07 describes compromises the integrity of the game. Officials become more worried about pleasing the coach and the AD than calling the game correctly. It is a sad situation.

Yes, I call over 300 games per year, 60% varsity HS, 20% subvarsity, the rest HS AAU, USSSA, etc.

Uhh, I just joined this DB about a week or so ago. Just got caught up with some closed minded individuals on this thread. I am retired since the age of 38. Still own/run 4 companies, but really a silent board member.

I didn't ask how long you have been officiating as a measuring stick -- I asked because you come across on this board as a brand new official who has just heard some information for the first time and was repeating it here. So, I was just curious.

Let me just tell you from my standpoint that I really don't care who started what... If I think a post is inappropriate and goes against the guidelines of the forum I will delete it. Usually I don't do this because I don't have a lot of time to police the forum (the moderators do a great job of this though!) -- but sometime, if I feel the need, I will take care of things myself.

I gave you some advice in a previous post... You are new here -- registered less than two weeks. You might want to settle in a little bit for a while as you seem to have rubbed a lot of long time members the wrong way.

So you call 180 varsity games a year. How long is the season in Kansas?

No argument there. If you really boil down the comment and take away the emotion, it's about having a ref who refuses to use the least bit of judgment and what would happen to him in my neck of the woods. The specific example cited are irrelevent.

Great for Brad. A little disappointed he would ask "Is this your first year?" after admonishing me about "snarky posts". I would have asked "How long have you been officiating?" Hope that doesn't translate to his rapport on the court - "hey coach, have you read a rule book?" . :D

He's not talking about me ... I live in Texas. I think he's talking about BktBallRef.

KS -- you really need to tone down your posts. You are defensive to anything that anyone says that doesn't agree with you and your responses are sarcastic and derogatory.

To put it in coach terms: This is your warning.

180 Varsity high school games a year?

Check.



Retired. Own/run 4 companies. Previous coach.

Check, check, check.

That exact question was asked of her, Tony. I also linked this thread to her, so that she has complete knowledge about what is being claimed as standard officiating practice in Kansas.

You're really quite full of yourself, aren't you?

No, officials and assignors are not all powerful. But the NCHSAA is. And they do not allow egotistical coaches and power hungry ADs decide who officiates their games.

Further, I have no reason to believe that things are done the same in all states. But I do know that it's absolutely ridiculous for a coach to try to mark an official off because he doesn't like it that a rule is being correctly enforced.

Kudos Brad for giving this "poster" some time off to re-think his posting habits.

Yeah, I get this too. Even with a 12 week season (ours is 10), 180 games would yield 15 games/week -- that's better than 2/day.

http://snltranscripts.jt.org/85/pics/85bliar.jpg

Yeah, that's the ticket. And when that runs out, you can always fall back on,
ACTING!

I did some quick, basic math.
180 varsity games a year?
It takes a 15 weeks season, working double headers 6 nights a week.
Then, he has to squeeze in the 60 sub varsity games during that same 15 week season.

Don't forget the 60 JV games.:D

At least 3 high school games a day--7 days a week.

Check.

Who wants 300 games? My God, I *hate* off-season basketball.

I work from late-November to early-March and then it's time for college and high school baseball. I haven't worked a single basketball game since March, which is why I missed this thread. Football season just ended for me Tuesday night.

You are the Johnny-come-lately here, not me, BTW. See the upper right? Over 7 years and 4100 posts. I'm just late arriving to a thread.

I couldn't possibly care if someone is or was a coach. Coaching is the coach's job. I'm an official. I want my partner to think like an official 100% of the time.

Too many coach-become-official types are the ones that won't whack a coach because "he understands the pressures" or won't make a call on the last possession because "he wants to let the players decide the game." Or he'll show up and be friends with everyone from the athletic director to the coaches. Who needs someone with that kind of baggage?

Look, the guy's on Time Out. Can we please get back to the topic of officiating basketball? Thank you

If you don't want to read it, don't open the thread. It's really that simple.

That's not very empathetic of you.

You know what's in this thread, Juulie. What you see is what you get. Besides, my season is almost a month away. :)