Touch foul to stop clock

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

If you really meant "barley touches the shorts", why did you first say "barely"? Or, did you mean he "barely touched the barley", which would definitely be illegal use of hands (except, perhaps, in a Minneapolis airport mens room).

These corny puns have to be ingrained in you at an early age for you to develop this rye sense of humor.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

These corny puns have to be ingrained in you at an early age for you to develop this rye sense of humor.

That's the spirit!

[mick]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

That's the spirit!

The player had some hops.

[BillyMac]

This is part of my early season, or rookie partner, pregame conference:

Last Two Minutes

Near the end of the game, be aware of coaches calling time-outs and be sure to inform them after they have used all their time outs.

We’re not calling anything in the last two minutes if we haven’t already called it earlier in the game, unless it’s so blatant that it can’t be ignored. We don’t want our first illegal screen to be called with 30 seconds left in the game; but if the illegal screen puts a player into the first row of the bleachers, then we have to call it.

Let’s not put the whistles away in the last two minutes: That wouldn’t be consistent with the way we’ve been calling the game. If the game dictates it, let the players win or lose the game at the line. We don’t want to be the ones who decide the game by ignoring obvious fouls just to get the game over.

End of game strategic fouls: If the winning team is just holding the ball and is willing to take the free throws, then let’s call the foul immediately, so the ballhandler doesn’t get hit harder to draw a whistle. Let’s make sure there is a play on the ball by the defense. If there’s no play on the ball, if the defense grabs the jersey from behind, or if the ballhandler receives a bear hug, we should consider an intentional foul. These are not basketball plays and should be penalized as intentional.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mick

The player had some hops.

If I keep making puns in this thread, I'll be a cereal punner.

[Back In The Saddle]

Philz,

Rainmaker's response aside, I think you have heard the correct answer. I would certainly not call that a foul. But I would question whether or not there had been anything else in the game that led to the "head tackle." That's a pretty big leap, even for wreck ball.

Being wreck ball, the teams probably know each other and there may have been bad blood already. That happens. And wreck leagues are notorious for ***holes whose basic game philosophy includes the notion of "I'll show them!"

As I've matured as an official, I can now look back at games where trouble errupted and can usually identify places where I didn't recognize something was brewing and nip it in the bud. Normally, at least in men's ball, even if somebody does something stupid or outrageous, if it gets called right away, the "victim" will usually let it go. But if "things" don't get called, frustration starts to build. Even if it appears that two guys are going at each other pretty much equally, and nobody is gaining an advantage, you probably have frustration building on at least one person's part. You need to set the accepted level of physicality, not the players. I knew that I was on the right track when I started calling some fouls early just to clean up play, and the guy getting fouled would thank me. He hadn't necessarily shown that he was unhappy with what had been going on at the time, but his response made it clear that he was.

Just my $0.02

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If I keep making puns in this thread, I'll be a cereal punner.

Just keep milking it, will you?

[gordon30307]

If your brave (or foolish) enough to do men's leagues Tee early (let them no you mean business) and late to send the same message to the two teams waiting to play the next game. Never do mens leagues where there is not adequate supervision.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

These corny puns have to be ingrained in you at an early age for you to develop this rye sense of humor.

[Nevadaref]

I know that you said that your rec league was using NCAA rules, but the following from last season's NFHS Points of Emphasis in the back of the rules book is excellent advice. I've put the two key points in red for you.

4. Intentional Fouls. The committee continues to be concerned about how games end. While there has been some improvement in the application of the rule, there is still need for further understanding and enforcement. An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul that neutralizes an opponent's obvious advantageous position. Contact away from the ball or when not making a legitimate attempt to play the ball or player, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting, shall be intentional. Intentional fouls may or may not be premeditated and are not based solely on the severity of the act. A foul also shall be ruled intentional if while playing the ball a player causes excessive contact with an opponent.
Fouling is an accepted coaching strategy late in the game. There is a right way and a wrong way to foul. Coaches must instruct their players in the proper technique for strategic fouling. "Going for the ball" is a common phrase heard, but intentional fouls should still be called on players who go for the ball if it is not done properly.
Additionally, in throw-in situations, fouling a player that is not involved in the play in any way (setting a screen, attempting to receive the in-bound pass, etc. ) must be deemed intentional. Far too often, officials do not call fouls as intentional when the act clearly meets the criteria.

5. Rules Enforcement and Proper Use of Signals. The committee has seen a movement away from the consistent application of rule enforcement and use of approved mechanics/signals.
A. Rules Enforcement. Officials need to be aware that personal interpretations of the rules have a negative impact on the game. The rules are written to provide a balance between offense and defense, minimize risks to participants, promote the sound tradition of the game and promote fair play. Individual philosophies and deviations from the rules as written negatively impact the basic fundamentals and tenants of the rules. Officials must be consistent in the application of all rules, including:
• Contact – Contact that is not considered a foul early in the game should not be considered a foul late in the game simply because a team "wants" to foul. Conversely, contact that is deemed intentional late in the game should likewise be called intentional early in the game.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I know that you said that your rec league was using NCAA rules, but the following from last season's NFHS Points of Emphasis in the back of the rules book is excellent advice. I've put the two key points in red for you.

4. Intentional Fouls. The committee continues to be concerned about how games end. While there has been some improvement in the application of the rule, there is still need for further understanding and enforcement. An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul that neutralizes an opponent's obvious advantageous position. Contact away from the ball or when not making a legitimate attempt to play the ball or player, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting, shall be intentional. Intentional fouls may or may not be premeditated and are not based solely on the severity of the act. A foul also shall be ruled intentional if while playing the ball a player causes excessive contact with an opponent.
Fouling is an accepted coaching strategy late in the game. There is a right way and a wrong way to foul. Coaches must instruct their players in the proper technique for strategic fouling. "Going for the ball" is a common phrase heard, but intentional fouls should still be called on players who go for the ball if it is not done properly.
Additionally, in throw-in situations, fouling a player that is not involved in the play in any way (setting a screen, attempting to receive the in-bound pass, etc. ) must be deemed intentional. Far too often, officials do not call fouls as intentional when the act clearly meets the criteria.

5. Rules Enforcement and Proper Use of Signals. The committee has seen a movement away from the consistent application of rule enforcement and use of approved mechanics/signals.
A. Rules Enforcement. Officials need to be aware that personal interpretations of the rules have a negative impact on the game. The rules are written to provide a balance between offense and defense, minimize risks to participants, promote the sound tradition of the game and promote fair play. Individual philosophies and deviations from the rules as written negatively impact the basic fundamentals and tenants of the rules. Officials must be consistent in the application of all rules, including:
• Contact – Contact that is not considered a foul early in the game should not be considered a foul late in the game simply because a team "wants" to foul. Conversely, contact that is deemed intentional late in the game should likewise be called intentional early in the game.

The point, Philz, is that you needed to call that touch foul, and if it's not a basketball play, call it an intentional. If they complain, you tell that it's just the way it's gonna be. If they're fouling to stop the clock, and they don't use legitimate means, it's an intention. I"d say barely touching the shorts falls into that category.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

The point, Philz, is that you needed to call that touch foul, and if it's not a basketball play, call it an intentional.

I'm not sure that's the point, to be honest. Would that play have been a foul -- or an intentional foul -- in the first quarter? I doubt it. Merely brushing the shorts is never a foul, unless the offense is just standing there, waiting to take the foul.

I think the point is, call what's there. If there's contact during a regular "basketball play" that impedes the offensive player, it's a common foul. If not, it's nothing. If the defender comes back and mugs somebody or grabs and pulls the jersey, it's an intentional foul.

I can't envision a case where I'd call a foul for barely touching a player's shorts (unless, as I said, the offensive player was simply waiting to be fouled).

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I'm not sure that's the point, to be honest. Would that play have been a foul -- or an intentional foul -- in the first quarter? I doubt it. Merely brushing the shorts is never a foul, unless the offense is just standing there, waiting to take the foul.

I think the point is, call what's there. If there's contact during a regular "basketball play" that impedes the offensive player, it's a common foul. If not, it's nothing. If the defender comes back and mugs somebody or grabs and pulls the jersey, it's an intentional foul.

I can't envision a case where I'd call a foul for barely touching a player's shorts (unless, as I said, the offensive player was simply waiting to be fouled).

Okay, maybe I mis read Nevada's post. But, yea, it would be an intentional foul in the first half. contact designed to stop the clock. That's an intentional regarless of the severity of the contact, and regardless of the time in the game. Seems pretty cut and dried to me.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Seems pretty cut and dried to me.

Are we talking about apricots now?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

The point, Philz, is that you needed to call that touch foul, and if it's not a basketball play, call it an intentional. If they complain, you tell that it's just the way it's gonna be. If they're fouling to stop the clock, and they don't use legitimate means, it's an intention. I"d say barely touching the shorts falls into that category.

No, my point was exactly the opposite. If he would not have called that light touch on the shorts a foul in the first quarter and would have instead allowed the team to have a 3 on 1 fastbreak, then he should also ignore the contact in the final minutes of the game.

Do not reward a team for doing something illegal.