NOooo!!!! Admit you are in a corner, and can't get out :)

That's rhetorical isn't it? You know better, don't you mick????

I'm not in a corner, although my computer is. It's just a waste of time to quote the rule for you. But here i go, wasting time. Here's the rule and a case book play.

4-12-1
A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds. There is no player control during an interrupted dribble.

4.15.4 SITUATION E: (a) A1 tosses the ball from one hand to the other while keeping his/her pivot foot in contact with the floor; or (b) A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. Ruling: Legal in (a), but a traveling violation in (b). In (b), A1 may not move his/her pivot foot without violating. Since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is not part of a dribble nor is it the start and end of a dribble. (9-4)

It'll be a cold day in hell when you get me in a corner. ;)

<i>Do the blinkers on my car work?
Yup...nope...yup...nope.</i>

Do I know better? I believe the player is in control during the tosses, eventhough he may not be touching the ball, because he had control and he has not lost control.

mick

BktBallRef
O.K. he wasn't dribbling or holding, and yet the case says he has player control, right?

Now, when the player releases the ball to the floor, that is where Tony and I see a need for definition.
Tony uses the rules (and I do not disagree with his rule interpretation), but I am using my gut.
mick

Yes, when he's tossing the ball. But there's no control if he places the ball on the floor, now is there? If you think so, provide a rule reference.

Can you provide a reference that says if I place a ball at my feet that I don't have player control? You have admitted that the dribbling/holding provision of 4-12-1 is not absolute, there is at least one exception (the toss). I don't see how setting the ball on the floor and picking it up repeatedly is any different than tossing it repeatedly.

I've tried repeatedly to show you the difference to no avail. Why should I continue? :(

There's no rule because it's not illegal or a violation. The situation where it is illegal is addressed in 4.43.5b. Tossing the ball is also addressed. There's no rule or case play that supports PC when the ball is sitting on the floor.

devdog 69 said on Jan. 27, 2002, 11:12am:

"I would have granted her an official's timeout and let her tie her shoe, or told her to get across halfcourt first and then done it."


BktBallRef said on Jan. 27, 2002, 11:57am:

"She didn't dribble again, so there's no double dribble.

If she put her knee down when she tied her shoe, picked the ball up, and stood, then she traveled.

I don't see any other possibilities.

I don't call TO to allow a player to tie her shoe."



First, there is no such thing as an official's timeout.

Second, the official is not to stop play unless the player requests a team timeout. Starting with the 1963-64 season, the National Basketball Committee of the United States and Canada (the predecessor to the NFHS and NCAA Rules Committees) changed the rules by deleting a section in the rules that allowed an official to stop play so that a player could tie a shoe lace. This deletion was not an editorial change but an actual change in the rules. For verification see 1963 in Part 1: The Game of Basketball, Chronology of Basketball Rules, NFHS Basketball Handbook 2000-02. When the NBCUSC split into the NFHS and NCAA Rules Committees, all interpretations of the NBCUSC carried over to the NFHS and NCAA. This means an official is also not to delay making a ball become live by witholding it from play so that a player can tie a shoe lace. I am not going to get into a philosophical debate over this point because it is not debatable. Players even at the jr. H.S. level are capable of tieing their shoes before the game in such a manner that their shoes do not come untied and if they are not tieing their shoes in such a manner shame on them, their parents, their coach.

I agree with you BktBallRef, but now I have given you the Mafia Kiss of Death.

There are an infinite number of situations not covered by cases, so to cover everything, the case book would have to be infinitely thick.

An official must learn to apply existing cases to novel situations.

When repeatedly Tossing (upward): release, grab, release, grab, ect.
Setting on floor and picking up: release, grab, release, grab, ect.

One occurs in the air, one occurs at the ground.

So if it is traveling to step while tossing, then it is traveling to step while "placing."

I'm done, further debate will not help either of us.

I appreciate the discussion.

Not a problem, Mark. There's certainly nothing wrong with agreeing with me when I'm correct. I noticed that no one has posted to say that they agree with Slider. :)

Slider, a player must be holding the ball to travel with 2 exceptions.

1- Throwing a pass to one's self, as described in 4.15.4e

2- Gaining player control while part of the body, other than the hand or knee is touching the floor, placing the ball on the floor, getting up and picking it up as described in 4.43.5b.

Now, supply a case book or rule that backs up your stand. Otherwise, admit that I have you in a corner. ;)

Aaargh!!! I was just starting to have fun! :p