I heard about this one the other day. A1 is bringing the ball up the court, slowly, with no pressure. She suddenly stops and asks the referee if she can tie her shoe. The ref made some sort of non-commital gesture (I was told.) At this point, A1 stopped, set the ball on the floor, and prodeeded to tie her shoe. Then she picked the ball up and passed it to a teammate, barely beating the 10 second count. Is there a violation here or not? Most of the fellows that I have talked to have said not.

I would have granted her an official's timeout and let her tie her shoe, or told her to get across halfcourt first and then done it.

She didn't dribble again, so there's no double dribble.

If she put her knee down when she tied her shoe, picked the ball up, and stood, then she traveled.

I don't see any other possibilities.

I don't call TO to allow a player to tie her shoe.

Unless she bent at the waist and not at the knee, this is a travel when she picks up the ball (same as going to a knee with the ball).

Not if she stands back up before she picks up the ball.

aren't we responsible for the safety of the players? unless there was a fastbreak, i would have put air in the whistle and allowed her to tie her shoe. what would be the big deal about doing that?

:confused:

I am really confused on this point. Why would it be a travel if she bent her knee, never contacting the floor, and than stood while holding the ball?

While I hate having to ask for rule and case book references I really need some help on this one.

Try this, yo.
 

A1 closely guarded, ends dribble and puts ball on the floor and stands with B1 still within 6 feet.
Not holding, not dribbling. End count. ;)

Guys - the rule about putting the ball down and then standing up deals with a player on the floor who has lost his dribble. He sets the ball down, then stands up, then picks up the ball. The call is a travel, because it is ruled that he tried to circumvent the rule that if he would have stood up while holding the ball, it's a travel.

In the case described here, there is no violation, even if her knee touched while she was down, as long as she didn't dribble again. It would be ruled the same as an interrupted dribble. If during an interrupted dribble, a player's knee happens to hit the ground, then they grab the ball and pass it, you don't call a violation, do you? (I must admit, I have never seen this)

BTW - in similar situations, when a player asks if they can have play stopped to tie their shoe, I reply that they have to use a timeout (if the situation lets me have that much time to respond). If it doesn't, I ignore them so there is no doubt on their part that they cannot.

At the next dead ball, I tell all players to check their shoes (and, of course, tuck in their jerseys) ;)

[Edited by Mark Padgett on Jan 27th, 2002 at 03:02 PM]

Self-pass
 

Tony,
I am seeing a pass to herself.
She voluntarily released the ball, then tied her shoe, then picked up her pass to herself.
mick

Where's team B during all of this? If they were stupid enough not to try to pick this up, I'd let A1 have it!

Mick,
That is a bit finicky- would you really blow that and try to sell or explain the outcry-I think not!
Pistol

Don't feel bad about asking for citations, it is difficult to tell sometimes who is BS-ing you; I've been guilty myself of that infraction, ONCE ;)

I believe most of us are envisioning that she put her knee on the floor. So if we rule with that in mind, then the "correct" rulings here are based on 4.43.5 Situations B, C and D and on 4-43-5.

The Reader's Digest of those citations says that it is illegal to touch the floor with anything other than the foot or hand while holding the ball; and it is illegal to rise when you recover a ball (unless you are dribbling or you relinquish the ball until someone else touches it). The call is traveling for the illegal situations.

So, she traveled if she went to a knee, rose and then recovered the ball (before someone else touched the ball).

[Edited by Slider on Jan 27th, 2002 at 05:22 PM]

I dunno.
 

Pistol,
It just doesn't seem right to ignore.
I am not sure what to do.
Ain't an interrupted dribble.
Ain't a travel.
Ain't exactly right.

The only saving grace is that it would probably not happen except at the level where nobody wants to make a deal of it, so it is "easily" excused.
mick

Treat it like a fumble recovery as long as she doesn't dribble again she is ok- Remember the old D-F-D = BAD,but F-D-F=Good
Consider this-she dribbles down the floor .
, fumbles the ball then goes recovers the fumble and then passes or shoots. Ok eh!!! If the defenders let her do it and 10 seconds isn't called in the meantime everythings' great.

Pistol,
I can live with not making a deal of it.
But I will not tell anyone that the voluntary release was a fumble, because then the player can pass to themselves and never have to dribble.
mick

Mick
I AGREE!!!!
Pistol

RecRef, it isn't traveling. Even if she contacted the floor, as long as she didn't pick the ball up before she stood, it still wouldn't be traveling.

Putting the ball on the floor is no more a pass than it is a dribble. I don't find a rule prohibiting it.

Ah no, she didn't. This rule applies to a player who gains control of the ball while kneeling, sitting or lying on the floor.

As Padgett, if a player puts the ball on the floor, kneels and ties her shoe, stands, and then picks up the ball, she has not traveled.

"Set the ball on the floor"--that is what the post reads. This means she put both hands on the ball ("I"m sure she didn't palm it"). Therefore her dribble had ended. So, if and when she released the ball (set the ball down on the floor), can she pick it back up without it being a double dribble ????

Yes, in 4.43.5 Situations B, the player sets the ball down, gets up, picks the ball up and is called for traveling.

If setting the ball down was a dribble, then you wouldn't have a travel in 4.43.5 Situations B.

APHP, yes, she can. Touching the ball to the floor does not constitute a dribble. 4-15-4 Note 3

This is not the same situation ase 4.43.5 B. in the case play, the player gained control of the ball while on the floor. He placed the ball on the floor, got up, and picked the ball up then to circumvent the rule.

You are right, it isn't a dribble or a pass; it is equivalent to tossing the ball in the air while standing. If a player moves there pivot while doing that, then they have traveled.

I guess we'll have to disagree. This isn't a pass. As Padgett stated earlier, this is no different than an interrupted dribble.

Sorry to disagree: I'm afraid it is completely different from an interrupted dribble; an interrupted dribble is an accidental loss of control. You are allowed to move your feet during an interrupted dribble, you can't move your feet in this situation without traveling.

You're misapplying the Case Book play but that's okay. The point is that there's no player control during either. Player control exists when a player is holding or dribbling a ball. In this case, she is doing neither.

Is there player control while I stand and repeatedly bounce a ball upwards from my hand, i.e., during the time the ball is in the air?

Yes, this player still has player control. He may be tossing it into the air but, for control purposes, he essentially is still holding it.

But a player who puts the ball on the floor and ties her shoe, whether her knee touches the floor or not, does not have player control.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 27th, 2002 at 08:47 PM]

But you said that there is only player control while holding and while dribbling; please explain why there is player control while tossing.

Slider,
yup...nope...yup...nope...yup...nope...yup...nope. ...
mick

I'll let you study Rule 4 and make up your own mind.

NOooo!!!! Admit you are in a corner, and can't get out :)

That's rhetorical isn't it? You know better, don't you mick????

I'm not in a corner, although my computer is. It's just a waste of time to quote the rule for you. But here i go, wasting time. Here's the rule and a case book play.

4-12-1
A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds. There is no player control during an interrupted dribble.

4.15.4 SITUATION E: (a) A1 tosses the ball from one hand to the other while keeping his/her pivot foot in contact with the floor; or (b) A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. Ruling: Legal in (a), but a traveling violation in (b). In (b), A1 may not move his/her pivot foot without violating. Since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is not part of a dribble nor is it the start and end of a dribble. (9-4)

It'll be a cold day in hell when you get me in a corner. ;)

<i>Do the blinkers on my car work?
Yup...nope...yup...nope.</i>

Do I know better? I believe the player is in control during the tosses, eventhough he may not be touching the ball, because he had control and he has not lost control.

mick

BktBallRef
O.K. he wasn't dribbling or holding, and yet the case says he has player control, right?

Now, when the player releases the ball to the floor, that is where Tony and I see a need for definition.
Tony uses the rules (and I do not disagree with his rule interpretation), but I am using my gut.
mick

Yes, when he's tossing the ball. But there's no control if he places the ball on the floor, now is there? If you think so, provide a rule reference.

Can you provide a reference that says if I place a ball at my feet that I don't have player control? You have admitted that the dribbling/holding provision of 4-12-1 is not absolute, there is at least one exception (the toss). I don't see how setting the ball on the floor and picking it up repeatedly is any different than tossing it repeatedly.

I've tried repeatedly to show you the difference to no avail. Why should I continue? :(

There's no rule because it's not illegal or a violation. The situation where it is illegal is addressed in 4.43.5b. Tossing the ball is also addressed. There's no rule or case play that supports PC when the ball is sitting on the floor.

devdog 69 said on Jan. 27, 2002, 11:12am:

"I would have granted her an official's timeout and let her tie her shoe, or told her to get across halfcourt first and then done it."


BktBallRef said on Jan. 27, 2002, 11:57am:

"She didn't dribble again, so there's no double dribble.

If she put her knee down when she tied her shoe, picked the ball up, and stood, then she traveled.

I don't see any other possibilities.

I don't call TO to allow a player to tie her shoe."



First, there is no such thing as an official's timeout.

Second, the official is not to stop play unless the player requests a team timeout. Starting with the 1963-64 season, the National Basketball Committee of the United States and Canada (the predecessor to the NFHS and NCAA Rules Committees) changed the rules by deleting a section in the rules that allowed an official to stop play so that a player could tie a shoe lace. This deletion was not an editorial change but an actual change in the rules. For verification see 1963 in Part 1: The Game of Basketball, Chronology of Basketball Rules, NFHS Basketball Handbook 2000-02. When the NBCUSC split into the NFHS and NCAA Rules Committees, all interpretations of the NBCUSC carried over to the NFHS and NCAA. This means an official is also not to delay making a ball become live by witholding it from play so that a player can tie a shoe lace. I am not going to get into a philosophical debate over this point because it is not debatable. Players even at the jr. H.S. level are capable of tieing their shoes before the game in such a manner that their shoes do not come untied and if they are not tieing their shoes in such a manner shame on them, their parents, their coach.

I agree with you BktBallRef, but now I have given you the Mafia Kiss of Death.

There are an infinite number of situations not covered by cases, so to cover everything, the case book would have to be infinitely thick.

An official must learn to apply existing cases to novel situations.

When repeatedly Tossing (upward): release, grab, release, grab, ect.
Setting on floor and picking up: release, grab, release, grab, ect.

One occurs in the air, one occurs at the ground.

So if it is traveling to step while tossing, then it is traveling to step while "placing."

I'm done, further debate will not help either of us.

I appreciate the discussion.

Not a problem, Mark. There's certainly nothing wrong with agreeing with me when I'm correct. I noticed that no one has posted to say that they agree with Slider. :)

Slider, a player must be holding the ball to travel with 2 exceptions.

1- Throwing a pass to one's self, as described in 4.15.4e

2- Gaining player control while part of the body, other than the hand or knee is touching the floor, placing the ball on the floor, getting up and picking it up as described in 4.43.5b.

Now, supply a case book or rule that backs up your stand. Otherwise, admit that I have you in a corner. ;)

Aaargh!!! I was just starting to have fun! :p