ap on throw-in

[kbilla]

Apologies if this has already been discussed, but looking at this year's NFHS exam q.3. "During an AP throw-in by A1, B2 intentionally kicks the throw-in pass. A1 will be awarded a new throw-in opportunity, but the arrow will remain pointed in the direction of A's basket". True or False?

Lets clear up the first point here, the throw-in never ended b/c the ball was not contacted legally, so for the moment the arrow will remain with A. But once A completes the inbounds resulting from the kick, do they still keep the arrow? The way the rule is written it would seem to say yes b/c the second throw-in is no longer an AP throw-in, it is the throw-in resulting from the violation (or is it still the AP throw-in b/c the AP throw-in never ended?)...BUT, this doesn't seem to make any sense that A would essentially get an extra AP on the next jump ball just because B kicked in that particular situation. I am saying F to this as far as A keeping the arrow after the inbounds following the kick, but I can't seem to find this specific case anywhere...any of you guys who can quote line & verse know where this is addressed? Thanks..

[Jurassic Referee]

Rules 6-4-4 & 4-42-5.

[kbilla]

Thanks JR, tose are the two rules that I have reviewed that seem to be written in such a way that A would keep the AP even after the throw-in subsequent to the kick...is that how you would interpret this?

[Adam]

Yes.
And for the record, I don't like it any more than you do.
But that's the way it is.

[kbilla]

That just seems completely wrong doesn't it? Is this in the casebook anywhere? I don't think I have ever had this happen, has anyone? I just can't imagine walking over to the table and telling them to NOT change the arrow (because you can bet they'd get it wrong)....the opposing coach would go ballistic - I know not a reason to not do something, just trying to picture the scenario!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by kbilla

That just seems completely wrong doesn't it? Is this in the casebook anywhere? I don't think I have ever had this happen, has anyone? I just can't imagine walking over to the table and telling them to NOT change the arrow (because you can bet they'd get it wrong)....the opposing coach would go ballistic - I know not a reason to not do something, just trying to picture the scenario!

Careful, there's only about 4 or 5 of us here that think this way.
Most seem to think if you switched the arrow, you'd be penalizing A.

The idea is that the arrow grants a team a complete throwin. Since their initial throwin doesn't get completed, they will get the next AP throwin.

Personally, I think the arrow should switch as soon as the thrower is handed the ball. But, the NFHS rules committee disagrees with me, so I digress.

As far as coaches and the table; a quick explanation will suffice. Unless the coach is a real howler, he'll accept it if you tell him why you're doing it. Again, a short explanation will work.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

As far as coaches and the table; a quick explanation will suffice. Unless the coach is a real howler, he'll accept it if you tell him why you're doing it. Again, a short explanation will work.

Example please?

And, kbilla, be sure you check the arrow after that second throw in, to be sure the table DOESN"T switch the arrow. It's even harder to explain a minute and a half down the road.

[kbilla]

I guess I see that in the letter of the rule, but A was awarded the AP throw-in as the result of a jump-ball. That gives them the right to posession, which they still have after the kick....now you are basically giving the right to the NEXT posession following a jump ball just because B kicked...seems like a pretty stiff penalty on B for something as innocuous as a kick...

Would like to see this specific case excluded personally...

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Example please?

"Coach, by rule, the throwin was never completed, so the arrow will remain with A."

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

"Coach, by rule, the throwin was never completed, so the arrow will remain with A."

"But, ref, they used that arrow for the second throw-in, didn't they?" (loosely paraphrasing for comprehension)

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

"But, ref, they used that arrow for the second throw-in, didn't they?" (loosely paraphrasing for comprehension)

"Nope, the second throw-in was for the kicked ball violation."

[Hartsy]

Originally Posted by kbilla

I guess I see that in the letter of the rule, but A was awarded the AP throw-in as the result of a jump-ball. That gives them the right to posession, which they still have after the kick....now you are basically giving the right to the NEXT posession following a jump ball just because B kicked...seems like a pretty stiff penalty on B for something as innocuous as a kick...

Would like to see this specific case excluded personally...

I'd just like to see more people concentrate on something that really matters. Too many people (coaches, fans, officials) go nuts over who has the arrow when it really evens out. No matter what, someone gets the last AP throw in, and there is no way to predict when the last one will be.

Granted, we have to get it right, but I'm not going to worry about it if Team A gets 6 "arrows" to B's 5, when it should have been 5 for A and 6 for B. Out of what, 50 or more total posessions a game?

Hey, it's better than an old fashioned jump ball, anyhow.

[kbilla]

Hartsy I somewhat agree with you as far as over the course of the game, but if you come down to the last 2 mins in a close game the arrow is extremely important...I'd hate to have to apply this rule in that case, but I just hate this rule in general I guess...

[Hartsy]

Originally Posted by kbilla

Hartsy I somewhat agree with you as far as over the course of the game, but if you come down to the last 2 mins in a close game the arrow is extremely important...I'd hate to have to apply this rule in that case, but I just hate this rule in general I guess...

The arrow is not any more important then, just more noticed, like everything else. Tell the coach if he wanted the arrow to change, tell his players not to kick the ball.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Hartsy

The arrow is not any more important then, just more noticed, like everything else. Tell the coach if he wanted the arrow to change, tell his players not to kick the ball.

Yeah unforunately that's what you have to tell him, but I don't have to like it!