Traveling question

[ATXCoach]

Player A1 is dribbling. B1 slaps the ball up into A1's chest. A1 takes several steps while trying to regain control of the ball. A1 then grabs the ball with two hands and establishes a pivot foot.

The ball never leaves the upper body area of A1, but is also never in control/possesion of A1.

Is this a travel? Does the fact that A1 was dribbling matter?

Thanks.

[JRutledge]

You have answered your own question. If the ball was knocked away by the defender, then the dribble has ended (new clarification for this year). And if the ball handler never had control of the ball, it is impossible for them to travel. So the answer is this is not traveling because there is no control of the ball and you cannot travel during a dribble.

Peace

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by ATXCoach

Player A1 is dribbling. B1 slaps the ball up into A1's chest. A1 takes several steps while trying to regain control of the ball. A1 then grabs the ball with two hands and establishes a pivot foot.

The ball never leaves the upper body area of A1, but is also never in control/possesion of A1.

Is this a travel? Does the fact that A1 was dribbling matter?

Thanks.

Not a travel.

A1 can legally dribble again.

[Vinski]

You mentioned that A1 was “trying to regain control”. This means A1 did not have control and most likely fumbling with the ball. A player cannot travel unless he/she has control.
On a side note; when B1 slapped the ball, the dribble for A1 ended and means that A1 can dribble again once he/she regains control.

[Splute]

I believe you would apply rules 4-15-5 (interrupted dribble / no player control) and 4-15-4d (a dribble ends when... ) with Note 2.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You have answered your own question. If the ball was knocked away by the defender, then the dribble has ended (new clarification for this year). And if the ball handler never had control of the ball, it is impossible for them to travel. So the answer is this is not traveling because there is no control of the ball and you cannot travel during a dribble.

Peace

I don't like the phrase the "dribble has ended". It has always been a bit confusing to me. I always have it in my mind when I hear that phrase that they can't dribble again. But most of the time we use the phrase it means they can. Why? If I stop dribbling the ball the dribble has ended, but I can't dribble again. However, when the defense hits the ball, the "dribble has ended" and the player can dribble again.

Confused in GA.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rwest

I don't like the phrase the "dribble has ended". It has always been a bit confusing to me. I always have it in my mind when I hear that phrase that they can't dribble again. But most of the time we use the phrase it means they can. Why? If I stop dribbling the ball the dribble has ended, but I can't dribble again. However, when the defense hits the ball, the "dribble has ended" and the player can dribble again.

Confused in GA.

The bottom line is the dribble has ended and it ended because the defender is touched by an opponent and caused the dribbler to lose control.

A dribble can end many ways, why would this be something hard to understand.

Peace

[rwest]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The bottom line is the dribble has ended and it ended because the defender is touched by an opponent and caused the dribbler to lose control.

A dribble can end many ways, why would this be something hard to understand.

Peace

It's not hard to understand. Its just that when I first started officiating basketball it was not clearly defined. Try to think back to when you first started. If someone said that the dribble has ended and they didn't further elaborate, would you not think, they can't dribble again. All I'm saying is that a different phrase or a clarification would be helpful to those new to the profession. The phrase "the dribble has ended" in my mind implies that they've lost the right to dribble. In many cases that's not true. But often times I've heard it said that the dribble has ended in this or that situation but they don't go the next step and say that the player can dribble again.

[Splute]

Originally Posted by rwest

I don't like the phrase the "dribble has ended". It has always been a bit confusing to me. I always have it in my mind when I hear that phrase that they can't dribble again. But most of the time we use the phrase it means they can. Why? If I stop dribbling the ball the dribble has ended, but I can't dribble again. However, when the defense hits the ball, the "dribble has ended" and the player can dribble again.

Confused in GA.

The rule defines when a dribble ends, period. Actions after that involve other rules such as traveling, player control (loss there of), double dribble, start of a NEW dribble, etc. In my mind they are independent of each other. Perhaps in your mind you are still relating subsequent actions (after batted ball) to the previous dribble when the current action is a loose ball or fumble.

Rule 4-15-4

Art. 4... The dribble ends when:
	a.		The dribbler catches or causes the ball to come to rest in one or both hands.
	b.		The dribbler palms/carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or both hands.
	c.		The dribbler simultaneously touches the ball with both hands.
	d.		An opponent bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) the ball.
	e.		The ball becomes dead.
NOTE: 1 It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble.
NOTE: 2 A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions.
NOTE: 3 It is a dribble when a player stands still and bounces the ball. It is not a dribble when a player stands still and holds the ball and touches it to the floor once or more than once.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by rwest

It's not hard to understand. Its just that when I first started officiating basketball it was not clearly defined. Try to think back to when you first started. If someone said that the dribble has ended and they didn't further elaborate, would you not think, they can't dribble again. All I'm saying is that a different phrase or a clarification would be helpful to those new to the profession. The phrase "the dribble has ended" in my mind implies that they've lost the right to dribble. In many cases that's not true. But often times I've heard it said that the dribble has ended in this or that situation but they don't go the next step and say that the player can dribble again.

I see your point. Often, "the dribble has ended" has been used to equate to "no more dribble allowed." Of course, it's not always true that the dribbler can't have any more dribbles after the dribble has ended, but that can get read into it. You just have to learn to listen to what others are saying, and always ask yourself "WHY did the dribble end? What's allowed next?" And always speak about these issues clearly when you're discussing this situation with others, so that you're not contributing to the confusion.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by rwest

I don't like the phrase the "dribble has ended". It has always been a bit confusing to me. I always have it in my mind when I hear that phrase that they can't dribble again. But most of the time we use the phrase it means they can. Why? If I stop dribbling the ball the dribble has ended, but I can't dribble again. However, when the defense hits the ball, the "dribble has ended" and the player can dribble again.

Confused in GA.

The phrase "the dribble has ended" tells you definitively that that dribble is over and whatever happens after that needs to be judged with that in mind. This is as opposed to saying that the ball came loose and an interrupted dribble is happening.

If you look at it that way, perhaps that will help eliminate some of your confusion. An official does need to know whether the action is an interrupted dribble or not and this phrase provides that information.

As you have said, it conveys no information about whether or not a player may dribble again.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Of course, it's not always true that the dribbler can't have any more dribbles after the dribble has ended.

Juulie - you know my son Josh. His son is almost two and Josh will tell you that the dribbler always has more dribbles after you think the dribble has ended.

[Splute]

Mark, I bet you are a blast to ref with. Every thread you post in cracks me up. You have a great since of humor. Which is very helpful in this avocation... or did this avocation drive you to this? never mind, your are on meds.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Splute

Mark, I bet you are a blast to ref with. Every thread you post in cracks me up. You have a great since of humor. Which is very helpful in this avocation... or did this avocation drive you to this? never mind, your are on meds.

Well, since you asked. I'm sure most of you would be bored hearing about my personal life, so here's the really short version. When I was growing up, I was always the youngest in my class (long story - never mind) by 2 or 3 years. I found the easiest way to get to be part of "the guys" was to make them laugh. I developed a sense of humor and used it as a way to become accepted. It's carried over into my adult life. Frankly, I feel that if you can't look at life with a sense of humor, what's the point?

BTW - if you like to laugh, check out my new signature and also the post I started on the general board.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Splute

Mark, I bet you are a blast to ref with. Every thread you post in cracks me up. You have a great since of humor. Which is very helpful in this avocation... or did this avocation drive you to this? never mind, your are on meds.

He's not on meds nearly often enough! Actually, he's great to ref with, but not only because of his sense of humor. He's a good ref, and he calls things tight, but fair. He doesn't let any crap get started between players, and he knows how to be gentle and patient with those that struggle (including refs!). The only bad thing is when he starts telling the same darn jokes over, and over, and over again. It can get a little old. Also, if I arrive at a game, and he's got on his fishnets, I leave quick before he sees me. That's not a good sign at all!