BktBallRef was right!! (Sorry, Nevada)

[just another ref]

I stand corrected. I don't necessarily agree with the logic, but it is not my place to do so. My remaining question has to do with the other play which Tony posted on the other thread:

A1 shoots, ball comes off the backboard and rim hard and bounds all the way out to the division line. A2 leaps from his FC, catches the ball while airborne, and lands in the BC. Is this a violation? Damn skippy it is.

Is this a violation on only team A? Is it significant that A was last in control?
Or would it also be a violation on B if A's shot is batted out to the division line and B1 jumps from his FC, secures control, and lands in BC?

I would think that it would have to be a violation on either team in this case, but I'm not gonna bet the farm on it.

[BktBallRef]

Damn, I get tired of being right all the time.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Damn, I get tired of being right all the time.

This was the original thread.

Throw-in/Backcourt violation?

[BktBallRef]

Damned if a bunch of you didn't miss that one!!

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I stand corrected. I don't necessarily agree with the logic, but it is not my place to do so. My remaining question has to do with the other play which Tony posted on the other thread:

A1 shoots, ball comes off the backboard and rim hard and bounds all the way out to the division line. A2 leaps from his FC, catches the ball while airborne, and lands in the BC. Is this a violation? Damn skippy it is.

Is this a violation on only team A? Is it significant that A was last in control?
Or would it also be a violation on B if A's shot is batted out to the division line and B1 jumps from his FC, secures control, and lands in BC?

I would think that it would have to be a violation on either team in this case, but I'm not gonna bet the farm on it.

Consider these points and perhaps it won't be as difficult.

1-There is no Team A or Team B in this play.
2- It makes no difference which team shot the ball, who was on defense, who was on offense.
3- It's a loose ball, there's no team control and no one is "entitled" to the ball.

When player #12 jumps from his FC and grabs the ball, he has now established team control, the ball has FC status, and he is the last player to touch the ball in the FC. When he lands in the BC, he has committed a BC violation.

It's actually no different than the play Scrapper1 cited.

[Mark Dexter]

Good stuff, Scrappy.

I actually got an e-mail from my board's interpreter a month or two ago saying no violation. Glad it got cleared up by Fed.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

Glad it got cleared up by Fed.

It's not the first time that related case plays have come out after some lengthy rules discussions on this forum. Methinks some things that we discuss are getting back to members of the rules committee.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Consider these points and perhaps it won't be as difficult.

1-There is no Team A or Team B in this play.
2- It makes no difference which team shot the ball, who was on defense, who was on offense.

When player #12 jumps from his FC and grabs the ball, he has now established team control, the ball has FC status, and he is the last player to touch the ball in the FC. When he lands in the BC, he has committed a BC violation.

It's actually no different than the play Scrapper1 cited.

When you say there is no Team A or B, does that mean simply that there is no team control, (like the case play) or does this refer to the fact that team control by A ended on the try, and there is no more Team A & B (offense/defense) until team control is reestablished?

3- It's a loose ball, there's no team control and no one is "entitled" to the ball.

The red part here is also true in the case play. I don't know what you mean by "entitled to the ball." When is one entitled to the ball?

My new question:

Team A is awarded a throw-in near the division line. A1's throw-in is deflected by B1; B2 jumps from Team B's frontcourt, catches the ball in the air and lands in the backcourt. Is this a violation, or is B2 still considered a defender in this play?

[BktBallRef]

"team control by A ended on the try, and there is no more Team A & B (offense/defense) until team control is reestablished"

Correct. There is no offense or defense. The rule equally applies to all 10 players on the field.

"The red part here is also true in the case play. I don't know what you mean by "entitled to the ball." When is one entitled to the ball?"

In the case play, a team is entitled to the ball because they have the throwin, therefore, they are Team A.

I'm just trying to help you see that in your play, no matter which team a player is on, he can't jump from his FC, gain player control of the ball and land in his BC. It's a BC violation.

[Adam]

Well, I guess this clears it all up then. It's obvious from this that the committee intends the parenthetical statement in this rule to be all-inclusive rather than merely providing examples. I stand corrected.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

My new question:

Team A is awarded a throw-in near the division line. A1's throw-in is deflected by B1; B2 jumps from Team B's frontcourt, catches the ball in the air and lands in the backcourt. Is this a violation, or is B2 still considered a defender in this play?

I would say that B2 is a defensive player on this play and thus it is not a violation. But what the heck do I know!?!?

Scrapper, Thanks for the clarification. I won't get my new books until the first week of October.
For now I will have to wonder if the NFHS changed the wording of the actual rule or simply writing case plays that support the stance that Tony advocated. That being that the during a throw-in, during a jump ball, and defensive player are THE ONLY THREE times that an exception is granted. If that is the case, then it seems to me that they should have just kept the old wording. It was clearer.

I also agree with Jurassic's point that the members of this discussion forum have once again caused the NFHS to issue a clarification. If we can keep having that kind of positive impact then we are not wasting our time.

PS Congrats to BktBallRef for championing the position that the NFHS elected to support.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

For now I will have to wonder if the NFHS changed the wording of the actual rule or simply writing case plays that support the stance that Tony advocated. That being that the during a throw-in, during a jump ball, and defensive player are THE ONLY THREE times that an exception is granted. If that is the case, then it seems to me that they should have just kept the old wording. It was clearer.

NFHS rule 9-9-3 has NOT changed in this year's book. The case play clarifies that Tony was right.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Consider these points and perhaps it won't be as difficult.

1-There is no Team A or Team B in this play.
2- It makes no difference which team shot the ball, who was on defense, who was on offense.
3- It's a loose ball, there's no team control and no one is "entitled" to the ball.

When player #12 jumps from his FC and grabs the ball, he has now established team control, the ball has FC status, and he is the last player to touch the ball in the FC. When he lands in the BC, he has committed a BC violation.

It's actually no different than the play Scrapper1 cited.

In simpler terms what the NFHS is now telling us is that since this action does NOT take place (1) during a throw-in, (2) during a jump ball, or (3) by a defensive player (The last being because there is no clear offensive team or clear defensive team in this scenario.), the player is not granted an exception and thus this is a violation.

At least that is how I now understand the rule after reading the new case play posted by Scrapper.

[Scrapper1]

I'm just happy I didn't chime in on the other thread (because I think I would've been wrong and ended up owing Bktballref $5).

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

In simpler terms what the NFHS is now telling us is that since this action does NOT take place (1) during a throw-in, (2) during a jump ball, or (3) by a defensive player (The last being because there is no clear offensive team or clear defensive team in this scenario.), the player is not granted an exception and thus this is a violation.

At least that is how I now understand the rule after reading the new case play posted by Scrapper.

I don't think it's "simpler terms" to try to explain why an exception doesn't apply. This play has nothing to do with the exceptions so why bring them up? It only further confuses the issue for someone who doesn't already understand it.