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-   -   BktBallRef was right!! (Sorry, Nevada) (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/38126-bktballref-right-sorry-nevada.html)

M&M Guy Mon Sep 10, 2007 03:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
You got me.

And I was focussed on not spelling it naval... :rolleyes:
No problem, glad to help. :D

Now I'm going to go back to my corner and shut up, like I was told.

Adam Mon Sep 10, 2007 03:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
Now I'm going to go back to my corner and shut up, like I was told.
When did it get that easy?

M&M Guy Mon Sep 10, 2007 03:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
When did it get that easy?
Once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, like viewing Halley's comet.

Adam Mon Sep 10, 2007 03:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
Once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, like viewing Halley's comet.
Unless you're JR or Padgett, then Halley's comes around two or three times.

Mark Padgett Mon Sep 10, 2007 03:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Unless you're JR or Padgett, then Halley's comes around two or three times.
To be accurate, the scientific notation for this object is comet Halley (pronounced hal-lee - rhymes with alley). In astronomy, you indicate the type of object first, then it's name.

I know this because I worked at the Oregon Museum of Science & Industry for five years then opened up my own telescope and binocular shop just to take advantage of comet Halley.

BTW - when I worked at OMSI, people would frequently come in and ask us what the difference was between astronomy and astrology. Our stock answer was "astronomy is the scientific study of objects in the sky while astrology is a load of crap." :D

Jurassic Referee Mon Sep 10, 2007 04:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef
1) The rule book disagrees with you.
9-9-3
[B]A player from the team not in control(defensive player or <font color = red>during a jump ball or throw-in</font>) may legally jump from his/her frontcourt, secure control of the ball with both feet off the floor and return to the floor with one or both feet in the backcourt. The player may make a normal landing and it makes no difference whether the first foot down is in the frontcourt or backcourt.

2) During a throw-in, the thrower has control of the ball. It has nothing to do with team control or player control. A defensive player is a member of the opponent of the thrower.

3)The fact that there's no team control during a throw-in does not mean that one team is not on defense.

4)There is no NFHS Basketball Rules definition for the word control. There are only definitions for player control and team control.
Therefore, we rely on Webster's definition, just like we do for any other word that's not specifically defined in Rule 4.
1) Kinda handily forgot about the words in red didn't you? You know--"during a ...throw-in"? The rules don't say anything about who's a defender at that time, and the rules also never state <b>when</b> a player becomes a defender. If the FED hadda thought that there were "defenders" during a throw-in, then why did they add those additional words instead of just leaving it at "defensive player"? I read that sentence as saying that there are NO defensive players during a throw-in, which blows your whole postulation all t'hell. Good try.:)

2) Your <b>opinion</b> only.....I disagree.

3) Your <b>opinion</b> only.....I disagree.

4) Your <b>opinion</b> only.......I disagree.

Btw, I also ain't gonna argue this one for too long. It's not really germane to the call and I don't know really of any cases off the top of my head where it is even relevant.

mbyron Mon Sep 10, 2007 04:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett
I know this because I worked at the Oregon Museum of Science & Industry for five years then opened up my own telescope and binocular shop just to take advantage of comet Halley.
Did they tell you that Mark Twain was born in a year that the comet came by, and died the next time it came around?

Old School Mon Sep 10, 2007 05:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Good point. But.....that's why I think that they wrote the TO rule as only to be granted when the ball is in <b>control of</b> or at the <b>disposal</b> of his/her team. The thrower has the ball at his disposal, without control(using rules semantics for the definition of control).
Hold the phone on this one. After a made basket, the team that just scored can call a timeout before the new offensive team or player control gets the ball. So, for this brief period, you can call a timeout when there is no player or team control.

Fed. really makes this complicated when there is no TC on a throw-in, however, once the ball is placed at the disaposal of the thrower-in, the opponents can not be granted a timeout, even though your arguement is there is no team control, no offense, no defense on a throw-in.

These are all good points though JR. Continue on, I'll hang up now.

BktBallRef Mon Sep 10, 2007 05:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
1) Kinda handily forgot about the words in red didn't you? You know--"during a ...throw-in"? The rules don't say anything about who's a defender at that time, and the rules also never state when a player becomes a defender. If the FED hadda thought that there were "defenders" during a throw-in, then why did they add those additional words instead of just leaving it at "defensive player"? I read that sentence as saying that there are NO defensive players during a throw-in, which blows your whole postulation all t'hell. Good try.:)

2) Your opinion only.....I disagree.

3) Your opinion only.....I disagree.

4) Your opinion only.......I disagree.

Btw, I also ain't gonna argue this one for too long. It's not really germane to the call and I don't know really of any cases off the top of my head where it is even relevant.
Let me get this straight.

If A1 has control of the ball for a throw-in, then B1 is NOT a defender? I wonder WTF he's doing then?

The single word "control" is defined in the rule book? Where can I find it?

Jurassic Referee Mon Sep 10, 2007 05:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef
If A1 has control of the ball for a throw-in, then B1 is NOT a defender? I wonder WTF he's doing then?

The single word "control" is defined in the rule book? Where can I find it?
Exactly! Where can I find the single word "control" in the <b>rule book</b> to back your statement that "A1 has <b>control</b> for a throw-in. You tell me.

Mark Padgett Mon Sep 10, 2007 05:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
After a made basket, the team that just scored can call a timeout before the new offensive team or player control gets the ball.
TEAMS CANNOT CALL TIMEOUTS!!!!!

Any other rules you don't know? Oh wait - don't list them because there is only so much bandwidth in the universe.

BktBallRef Mon Sep 10, 2007 05:42pm
As I said before, the definition doesn't appear in the rule book. Therefore, we use the defintion that exists in the real world, unless you know of some other place we can get a definition.

If I'm standing OOB and holding the ball, then I have control of the ball. It's not team control or player control but I am controlling the ball. Any 5th grader would know that.

I'm done.

Adam Mon Sep 10, 2007 05:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
Hold the phone on this one. After a made basket, the team that just scored can call a timeout before the new offensive team or player control gets the ball. So, for this brief period, you can call a timeout when there is no player or team control.

Fed. really makes this complicated when there is no TC on a throw-in, however, once the ball is placed at the disaposal of the thrower-in, the opponents can not be granted a timeout, even though your arguement is there is no team control, no offense, no defense on a throw-in.

These are all good points though JR. Continue on, I'll hang up now.
Timeouts may be granted, by rule, when requested by the team whose player is either in control or has the ball for a throwin; or (and this is key) when the ball is dead. After the basket and before the throwin team secures the ball (and the 5 second count begins), the ball is dead, thus allowing either team to request timeout.

Old School Mon Sep 10, 2007 06:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett
TEAMS CANNOT CALL TIMEOUTS!!!!!

Any other rules you don't know? Oh wait - don't list them because there is only so much bandwidth in the universe.
Mark, set away from the keyboard, put your hands up in the air. Just step away from the keyboard, it's going to be alright, I promise you the sun will come up tomorrow and we will get you a public defender when we get your a$$ behind bars and away from that keyboard.:D

Adam Mon Sep 10, 2007 06:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
Mark, set away from the keyboard, put your hands up in the air. Just step away from the keyboard, it's going to be alright, I promise you the sun will come up tomorrow and we will get you a public defender when we get your a$$ behind bars and away from that keyboard.:D
Mark's point is simple. Only the officials can "call" a timeout. They do so only after the team "requests" it. Common usage doesn't differentiate between "request" and "call" when it comes a timeout, and it may seem like an exercise in silly semantics, but the rules make a distinction for a reason.


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