Least called call

[refnrev]

Just meant that I don't do a lot of big schools or powerhouse programs with a lot of real big players. Most of the schools I do just haven't had many players with the size. A few, but not many ... and they left the basket alone. One school that I do a few games a year for has only 27 kids in the senior class. Good question by you on my unclear wording, though.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Corndog89

Who was the player...Michael Jordan? LeBron? Dr J? That's a lot of momentum (about 20 feet worth) for a rec leaguer (rec is all you call, right?)...from the top of the key all the way in for a layup??? Did you blow your whistle at the moment of the original foul (i.e., at the "top of the key")? If so, how did the player continue on for a "hampered" layup? His jumps must have the approximate thrust of a jet engine? Wish this was on You Tube.....

Let's table our imagination here. The player was fouled at the top of the key, my partenr called it, foul was on the floor, on the drive. The player continued to dribble towards the basket after the foul call, maybe he didn't hear the whistle but he wasn't going to be denied on this move. He then went up to shoot a layup and was clobbered, hammered to the floor. I felt the 2nd foul was too hard, unnecessary and I'm calling it. Originally, I thought multiple foul becasue the fouls where so close together in time. In the future, as i have stated, it will be a dead ball foul which is a technical, I don't care what JR says.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

Let's table our imagination here. The player was fouled at the top of the key, my partenr called it, foul was on the floor, on the drive. The player continued to dribble towards the basket after the foul call, maybe he didn't hear the whistle but he wasn't going to be denied on this move. He then went up to shoot a layup and was clobbered, hammered to the floor. I felt the 2nd foul was too hard, unnecessary and I'm calling it. Originally, I thought multiple foul becasue the fouls where so close together in time. In the future, as i have stated, it will be a dead ball foul which is a technical, I don't care what JR says.

You should table your imagination. Now the story changes. Before, the player's "momentum" took him in for a layup. Now, he "dribbled" in for a layup.

Don't matter anyway. In your original post, you said you called a multiple foul. My point was that the play couldn't be a multiple foul by rule no matter what scenario you try to dream up now...or then. Yes, you can call an intentional technical foul in the play you described above, but that would be a different type of foul than a multiple foul.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You should table your imagination. Now the story changes. Before, the player's "momentum" took him in for a layup. Now, he "dribbled" in for a layup.

Don't matter anyway. In your original post, you said you called a multiple foul. My point was that the play couldn't be a multiple foul by rule no matter what scenario you try to dream up now...or then. Yes, you can call an intentional technical foul in the play you described above, but that would be a different type of foul than a multiple foul.

And he is no longer 'hampered'.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You should table your imagination. Now the story changes. Before, the player's "momentum" took him in for a layup. Now, he "dribbled" in for a layup.

No, as usual you jump to conclusions in an overly adolescent attempt to try and make me wrong. In my scenario there was two situations. Both where just about the same. I had a player going in for a layup who was fouled out top, the players momentum was going towards the basket and he just kept going after the whistle, then he got hammered at the basket shooting the layup. Both fouls at the basket where harder then the fouls up top.

Don't matter anyway. In your original post, you said you called a multiple foul. My point was that the play couldn't be a multiple foul by rule no matter what scenario you try to dream up now...or then. Yes, you can call an intentional technical foul in the play you described above, but that would be a different type of foul than a multiple foul.

The rule says at approximately the same time. So I guess you want to have a big arguement about the definition of approximately? I'm not going there, just tell you that this is what I reason at the time, and as I also told both coaches, I'm giving you the better of the deal. I could have called a technical on the 2nd foul which would have given the player multiple foul shots and the ball back. This way, posession changes after we shoot the free throws. It's just two of your players is going to get charged with a foul here. Coach didn't like it and said it was ridiculous. I told the coach, we got a simple remedy here, tell your players to quite fouling so damn much, that way, I don't have to blow my whistle, I got no call to make, simple, plus there was no need to foul that player that hard the 2nd time.

JR, I'm sure that I did something wrong by your standards here. Fact of the matter is, when players start knocking other players to the floor after the whistle, I'm going to call something.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

2) The rule says at approximately the same time. So I guess you want to have a big arguement about the definition of approximately? I could have called a technical on the 2nd foul which would have given the player multiple foul shots and the ball back.

2)JR, I'm sure that I did something wrong by your standards here. Fact of the matter is, when players start knocking other players to the floor after the whistle, I'm going to call something.

1) Yup, the rule defining a "multiple foul" certainly does say that. And you certainly could also call an intentional or flagrant contact technical foul on the second foul too, IF the ball was dead on the first foul call. If you do call a technical foul though, then you CAN'T call a multiple foul. The definition of a "multiple foul" in the rules says that only personal fouls can be part of a multiple foul, not technical fouls. If you did call a multiple foul with one of the fouls being a technical foul, then "approximately at the same time" does NOT come into effect because it can't be a multiple foul. You'd screw up the penalties completely too, calling it the way that you suggest. The penalties for the fouls called as part of a multiple foul are completely different than the penalties awarded for a common foul followed by a technical foul. If the player wasn't shooting, then there wouldn't be any FT's if the multiple personal fouls didn't put the team in the bonus. If they were in the bonus, there would only be 1 FT for each foul. And there's all kinds of other combinations available on multiple fouls also, depending on whether the player was fouled was in the act of shooting, or whether the ball went in or not. You have to know all of these different penalty applications if you want to get the call right and award the proper number of FT's.

2) JMO, I don't have a problem with you calling something when a player gets knocked to the floor. I sureashell do have a problem if you're making the wrong call and handing out the wrong penalties though, and also telling others to do it your way. You simply do not understand the rules. That's my point.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If you do call a technical foul though, then you CAN'T call a multiple foul.

Say What!!!!

The definition of a "multiple foul" in the rules says that only personal fouls can be part of a multiple foul, not technical fouls.

Incorrect! The rules state that a multiple foul could be an Intentional Foul or a Flagrant Foul. Rule 4-19-3 and 4-19-4 states that an Intentional Foul or a Flagrant foul may be personal or technical. Rule 10-6 Penalties Section 6b. says a Multiple Foul can be Intentional or Flagrant.

If you did call a multiple foul with one of the fouls being a technical foul, then "approximately at the same time" does NOT come into effect because it can't be a multiple foul.

Bullsh!t

You'd screw up the penalties completely too, calling it the way that you suggest. The penalties for the fouls called as part of a multiple foul are completely different than the penalties awarded for a common foul followed by a technical foul. If the player wasn't shooting, then there wouldn't be any FT's if the multiple personal fouls didn't put the team in the bonus.

Damn, you must be having a bad day today. It's okay, we all have bad days. Rule 10-6 Penality Multiple Foul: 6a: says one F/T for each foul when NO TRY (was) INVOLVED. Give it up man, I knew exactly what I was doing when I called the foul, which BYW, I never told you what I did. So how can you say I screwed up the penalities?

One thing's for sure, the multiple foul scenarios are quite complicated. One in which I'm not going into. I'm just going to give out a Technical foul on the dead ball contact if I deem it unnecessary and intentional.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

Say What!!!!

Incorrect! The rules state that a multiple foul could be an Intentional Foul or a Flagrant Foul. Rule 4-19-3 and 4-19-4 states that an Intentional Foul or a Flagrant foul may be personal or technical. Rule 10-6 Penalties Section 6b. says a Multiple Foul can be Intentional or Flagrant.

Sigh.....

For the life of me, I don't know why I'm wasting time with you over such a basic and simple rule that you simply can't understand. You just can't comprehend what you're reading.

Rule 4-19-12--"A MULTIPLE foul is a situation in which two or more teammates commit PERSONAL fouls against the same opponent at approximately the same time."

PERSONAL!!

Note that they both committed PERSONAL fouls. Either of those PERSONAL fouls could also be an intentional PERSONAL foul or a flagrant PERSONAL foul. Neither one of those fouls can be a technical foul of ANY kind though. If one of them had committed a technical foul, then it couldn't possibly be a multiple foul. And if it ain't a multiple foul, you do NOT use 10-6PENALTY6.

Lah me.......

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Sigh.....

For the life of me, I don't know why I'm wasting time with you over such a basic and simple rule that you simply can't understand. You just can't comprehend what you're reading.

Rule 4-19-12--"A MULTIPLE foul is a situation in which two or more teammates commit PERSONAL fouls against the same opponent at approximately the same time."

PERSONAL!!

Note that they both committed PERSONAL fouls. Either of those PERSONAL fouls could also be an intentional PERSONAL foul or a flagrant PERSONAL foul. Neither one of those fouls can be a technical foul of ANY kind though. If one of them had committed a technical foul, then it couldn't possibly be a multiple foul. And if it ain't a multiple foul, you do NOT use 10-6PENALTY6.

Lah me.......

So lemme get this straight...multiple fouls apply to peronal fouls only?

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Sigh.....

For the life of me, I don't know why I'm wasting time with you over such a basic and simple rule that you simply can't understand. You just can't comprehend what you're reading.

Rule 4-19-12--"A MULTIPLE foul is a situation in which two or more teammates commit PERSONAL fouls against the same opponent at approximately the same time."

PERSONAL!!

Note that they both committed PERSONAL fouls. Either of those PERSONAL fouls could also be an intentional PERSONAL foul or a flagrant PERSONAL foul. Neither one of those fouls can be a technical foul of ANY kind though. If one of them had committed a technical foul, then it couldn't possibly be a multiple foul. And if it ain't a multiple foul, you do NOT use 10-6PENALTY6.

Lah me.......

As far as the penalities goes, please explain to the listening audience the difference between a Flagrant Personal Foul and a Flagrant Technical Foul or one of the multiple fouls being a Flagrant Personal Foul? What is the difference in the penalities?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

Excuse me! How was it the wrong call?

Apparently there was confusion stemming from your original post of this play on what happened, so let's go back in time for a moment:

Originally Posted by Old School

After reading up the definition of a multiple foul, I once called it. Player driving in for a layup was foul at the top of the key, his momentum took him in for a layup, which another player came across and hampered him again shooting the layup.

Now, from this description, it is reasonably assumed that you had one player get fouled by two different defenders during a live ball. This can happen when a player is fouled by one defender as he starts his shooting motion and another defender before that shooting motion ceases (or before the shooter lands.) Since the shooting motion has started, the ball does not become dead on the first foul, but instead remains live until the shooting motion is complete and the airborne shooter has returned to the floor.

Alternatively, a "multiple foul" would occur if two players hacked a shooter at the same time. Normally, in this play, one player is picked and only one foul is called. Since you stated you'd read up on the definition of multiple foul, I figured you maybe actually had one.

Originally Posted by Old School

Incorrect, as usual from you. If the 2nd foul needs to be called, it's a dead ball foul, a dead ball foul is a technical, or i could say it was apart of the original move and make it a multiple foul.

Gee, from this sentence, you seem to know that your original scenario was not in fact a multiple foul; it is a false multiple.
If it's a false mutliple, you'd penalize each foul in the order it occurred. Shoot the personal foul shots and then shoot the technical foul shots. If it's a multiple, you only shoot two shots. The difference is major. So, when you say you administered it by the rules, please forgive my skepticism and explain how you did it.
Here, you give further description of the play:

Originally Posted by Old School

Let's table our imagination here. The player was fouled at the top of the key, my partenr called it, foul was on the floor, on the drive. The player continued to dribble towards the basket after the foul call, maybe he didn't hear the whistle but he wasn't going to be denied on this move.

This is a classic false multiple. Give the original fouler his personal foul, give the second fouler his technical foul and shoot the two free throws. You admit the correct call is the technical on the 2nd player due to the fact that it's dead ball contact. However:

Originally Posted by Old School

In fact, I did use it again and it encountered the same reaction. After about 10 minutes getting everybody settle back down, we got back to play. So I have decided to screw the multiple foul, that 2nd foul on the same player will be a technical foul.

This is from your original post, and strongly indicates you called a personal foul on the 2nd fouler rather than a technical foul. Let me ask, which coach was upset? How do you think making it a technical foul would have kept the coach calmer?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Old School

As far as the penalities goes, please explain to the listening audience the difference between a Flagrant Personal Foul and a Flagrant Technical Foul or one of the multiple fouls being a Flagrant Personal Foul? What is the difference in the penalities?

Throw-in spot.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

As far as the penalities goes, please explain to the listening audience the difference between a Flagrant Personal Foul and a Flagrant Technical Foul or one of the multiple fouls being a Flagrant Personal Foul? What is the difference in the penalities?

Let me help out on this and maybe keep Jurassic's blood pressure down.

Flagrant personal foul: guilty party disqualified, two shots for the player fouled, and the shooting team will get the ball at the spot nearest where the foul occurred.

Flagrant Technical foul: guilty party disqualied, two shots for anyone on the other team, and the shooting team will be given the ball at the division line. Two key differences.

If you have both foul situations on the same team, you administer them in the order they occurred, which will involve the flagrant personal being shot first and the technical free throws shot last, with the ball at the division line to the team that shot the free throws.

If you have one flagrant personal on one team followed by a flagrant technical on the other team, you will shoot all free throws and give the ball to the team shooting the technical foul free throws (since the Tech will have come after the personal).

If you have double flagrant personal fouls (one on each team), you will not shoot free throws and the ball will be put in play following POI procedures.

If you have double flagrant technical fouls (one on each team), you will not shoot free throws and the ball will be put in play following POI procedures.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Throw-in spot.

and the shooter, if there is one.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

As far as the penalities goes, please explain to the listening audience the difference between a Flagrant Personal Foul and a Flagrant Technical Foul or one of the multiple fouls being a Flagrant Personal Foul? What is the difference in the penalities?

Hey, I know the answers. I've got a better idea. You tell me the difference between a flagrant personal foul and a flagrant technical foul. You tell me also what the right call should be in your post of 8:59am this morning--post #20 of this thread. And you tell me what the call is if one of the multiple fouls called is a flagrant personal foul.

And I'm still waiting to find out if you still insist that a technical foul of any kind can actually be part of a multiple foul under the rules, as you claimed above.

That'll show everybody that you really do know what you're doing. I await your answers.