Yep, looks like you agree. BTW the bold was even JR's, not mine. :)


Dribbler's don't throw bounce passes, you know that. Players throw bounce passes either before dribbling or after ending a dribble. :p

Rule 4-15-4 states that the dribble ended. It's got nothing to do with a violation that occurs after that. Rule 9-5 covers the violation.

If he pushes the ball to the floor once and then runs away from it, are you going to call that an illegal dribble also under 9-5? Iow, if he just drops the ball without touching it again, are you going to call that an illegal dribble? Or are you going to wait and see the result of the play?

Gee, call me silly but if I'm going to call an illegal dribble, I'm going to make sure that there actually <b>was</b> a dribble. That's just me though. You and Nevada can call it any way you want. And good luck to both of you.

Exactly! And now maybe you can explain why <b>you</b> are going to call a violation on someone who just legally threw a damn bounce pass <b>after</b> ending their dribble. If you make that call <b>before</b> you see the the result of the complete play, that's exactly what you're doing. And good luck with that.:rolleyes:

Now my head hurts, please make him stop.....

Simple remedy. Don't try to understand anything that you don't have any knowledge at all about....like actual rules.

Going by this statement in bold alone, then the power dribble is illegal, the start and stop of a two-handed dribble is illegal.

As far as your comment about helping or not helping newer officials understand the rules. You can add yourself to this list because what you just stated sureashell ain't clear. This whole double dribble topic ain't clear unless of course you think mud is clear. Likewise, though a lot of new officials frequent this site, the majority of interaction here is with veteran officials. Give it a rest!

Rule 4-15-4c: says the dribble ends when the dribbler simultaneously touches the ball with both hands. This is not clear but I can now reason that you can start a dribble with 2 hands and end a dribbler with 2 hands, and you can start/end a dribble with 2 hands as in the power dribble move, but you cannot dribble down the court with 2 hands continuously. That was my point.

Great discussion, I've learned a lot here, this forum as it's best. Though I think this is a great forum for new officials to come and ask questions to learn. I think it is priceless for the veteran official, you just like some have said (Rainmaker) here, have to weigh thru a lot of bullsh!t to get the correct answer.

Wrong. As said previously, you fail to comprehend what I posted, as well as what the rule actually is.

But, you can't go "by the bold alone." yOu have to read in context.

For example, I could have bolded "dribble is illegal" in your sentence.

Then, I could write -- going by the bold part alone, all dribbles are illegal. But, I won't, because that would be wrong.

By definition, a dribble is when the ball is pushed to the floor. Therefore, in my judgment, if the first push to the floor is a dribble, not a drop, not a bounce pass, that is when the violation occurs, not on a second touch. What if the defender picks his pocket after the ball is first pushed to the floor, does this save a violation? I think not.

The "power dribble" is legal if you break it down. A1 pushes the ball to the floor with two hands. This is the start of a dribble and it doesn't matter if A1 uses one hand or two. If A1 touches the ball again, with two hands, this ends the dribble. Move to the basket completes the play. Don't be confused by the fact that the dribble started legally by pushing the ball to the floor with two hands.

BTW and I really hate to say this, but your BS is the only BS that I consider to be alot of BS that I have to weigh through, JMO.

Then you have your personal blinders on. BS is BS, no matter where it comes from, and if you think I'm the only one out here serving up BS, then I really hate to tell you, you are truly blind, JMO.:D

I never said you were the only one serving up BS. Nothing personal either, JMO.

Just thought I'd provide an example of what happens when you pull a quote completely out of context and try to use it to make a point.

JR has been more than clear when you put all his posts in here together, of course so has Nevada.

How do you know if it's a dribble? You don't know until it comes up. How many drop passes look like dribbles? How many passes turn into dribbles? Just wait the split second it takes for the ball to come back up and hit the bouncer's hand before calling the violation.

According to R4-15-3, a dribble starts when a player pushes, <b>throws or bats the ball</b> to the floor. And, according to R4-31, a <b>pass</b> occurs when a player <b>throws, bats</b> or rolls the ball to another player. He can also legally <b>throw or bat</b> the ball to the floor at the start of the pass too. How do you differentiate between the <b>throw or bat</b> that start both a dribble and a pass then? Answer- <b>you</b> and Nevada don't. You both say that throw or bat <b>has</b> to be a second dribble and you call a violation.

If you can determine instantly the split-second that a ball leaves the player's hands after he's ended his dribble that his throw or bat is actually a dribble and not a pass, you're a helluva lot better official than I am. Dare I say....you're almost god-like.

Note that a two-handed bounce pass and a two-handed power dribble by definition are started </b>exactly</b> the same way.

I'm tired of repeating the same thing over and over.You and Nevada call it any way you want. I'd just like to be there the first time that a player does pass the ball and you two call that pass an illegal dribble.