Bounce pass to self
 

I know that a player cannot pass the ball to themselves. For example, throw the ball over a defender and then run around the defender and catch it. But what about a bounce pass to their self. Sitch: A1 having possession of the ball who has not yet dribbled, bounce passes to A2. However, A2 did not see the bounce pass and continues to run down the court. A1 then realizing this, sprints after his pass that has now bounced 3 or 4 times and then grabs it. My instincts tell me that this was nothing more than a dribble. But, it was intended as a type of pass. Legal?

As long as the player has not already dribbled, both scenarios would be legal. I have always heard the first situation as an "air dribble"

It's legal because it hit the floor. Since his dribble has not started, he can actually dribble after retrieving the ball.

Deleted bad advice.

In your first scenario, if A1 has not already used his dribble, he can throw the ball over the defender, run around and catch the ball -- as long as he allows it to touch the floor first, thus turning a "self-pass" into a legal dribble. He can also continue that dribble normally.

Right.
Right.
Wrong. If the player had previously dribbled, he may not retrieve this pass until it's touched by another player. If the pass bounces, it's considered an illegal dribble. If it does not bounce, it's a travel.

Air dribble? That's a new one on me. Are you saying it's legal to throw/tip/push the ball into the air out and away from you and then run and catch the ball without it ever hitting the court? Isn't that an illegal dribble?

This is not legal. A dribble must hit the floor. This "air dribble" is just what it looks like: illegal. Call it a travel and head the other way.

Almost Snaqs, if the player is dribbling, and bounce passes a pass to a teammate who doesn't see it. This player may retrieve this errant pass, even continue his dribble if he did not stop dribbling. He can grab the bounce pass and if he stops, he can not dribble again. In your case, if I'm understanding you correctly, if the dribbler stopped, then bounce pass, the ball needs to touch a player before he can retrieve it.

:rolleyes:
The OP had the ball being thrown over a defender. He was either holding the ball or his dribble ended with the throw. If a dribbling player throws the ball upwards, the ball has to have come to rest in his hand. Retrieving the "pass" would still constitute a double (illegal) dribble unless another player has touched it.

You may want to consult the case book - specifically 4-15-4 Sitch E (b).

Okay I'm going to try to summarize the various possibilities. Let's discuss them by number, okay? Rather than starting nine different threads, or getting confused about who's addressing which sitch.

1. A1 is holding the ball. A1 has used his dribble. A1 can't do much of anything that involves letting go of the ball and then touching it again.

2. A1 is holding the ball. A1 hasn't used his dribble. A1 can toss the ball over B1's head, run around B1 and catch the ball in a hold (ie not re-release it). as long as he doesn't move his feet after he catches it.

3. A1 is holding the ball. A1 hasn't used his dribble. A1 can toss the ball over B1's head, round around B1, allow the ball to hit the floor, and then continue a dribble as long as the touch behind B1 doesn't involve a hold, but is only a dribble.

4. A1 is dribbling toward B1. A1 can give the ball a good hard push to the floor so that it bounces very high. A1 can then sort of bat it over B1's head, without holding, allow it to bounce behind B1, run around B1 and continue dribbling. (that is, if B1 is dull-witted enough to let the ball make it that far!).

5. A1 is dribbling toward B1. A1 can begin the same maneuver as in #4, allow the ball to bounce behind B1, and then catch the ball behind B1 provided A1 doesn't take any more steps after catching the ball.

6. A1 is dribbling toward B1. A1 can begin the same maneuver as in #4, but can not catch the ball after the bat but before the ball hits the floor behind B1. This would be an illegal dribble, right?

#2 is the only one I'm not sure about, but I can't figure out why or why not it would or wouldn't be legal?

Why is #2 legal?

Case book says it is illegal.

see reference above.

Yea, I know, but then, why isn't it?

Thank you. I looked under 4.15.2 and there wasn't anything there, so I didn't look anywhere else. You are right. My #2 is illegal.

There have been so many things written in this thread that are incorrect that it makes my head hurt. :(

First to answer the question of the OP. Yes, you are right, that what Todd66 called an "air dribble" is illegal. He is not correct when saying that it is legal. Case Book play 4.15.4 Situation E specifies this. (BTW, Adam, please note that this is NOT traveling. It is an illegal dribble.)

4.15.4 SITUATION E: (a) A1 tosses the ball from one hand to the other while keeping his/her pivot foot in contact with the floor; or (b) A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. RULING: Legal in (a), but an illegal dribble violation in (b). In (b), since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is an illegal dribble. (9-5)

For your bounce pass scenario all that you need to see is this NFHS interp from a couple of seasons ago.

2003-04 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS

SITUATION 6: A1 jumps from the floor and secures a defensive re-bound. A1 then pivots toward the sideline where a teammate, A2, is standing for an outlet pass. Just as A1 releases the pass, A2 turns and runs down the court. A1 throws a soft bounce pass to where A2 was standing. A1 then moves and secures the ball without dribbling.
RULING:
Legal action. A1 had the pivot foot on the floor and began a dribble by throwing the ball to the floor (the bounce pass); the dribble ended when A1 secured the ball. Upon reaching the ball, A1 also could have continued the dribble. (4-15-3,4)

Sorry to make your head hurt. :)
That said, I thought it might be an illegal dribble. I just wasn't sure. Frankly, it makes more sense as traveling to me. :shrug:

But to deem this traveling would not be in line with the rules as written because as BktBallRef, our traveling and backcourt guru, has pointed out many times, in order to travel a player must be "holding the ball" as stated in 4-44, with one exception. (The one exception is the final sentence of 4.44.5 SitB.)

That's a fair enough point. It doesn't make sense as dribbling, either, because it's not a dribble. It doesn't hit the floor; of course, it is an "illegal" dribble. :)
Honestly, neither one makes a lot of sense. The key is knowing it's illegal and making a call. Look like you know what you're doing and head the other way. More experienced (okay, more knowledgable) officials will know to call this an illegal dribble rather than a false start, but the biggest thing is to call the violation.

Incorrect.
Allowed to fumble and recover.

What about A3, A4 and A5. They haven't used their dribble either.

#1 and #2 legal: If the official deems it as a shot attempt.
#3 legal: but what does A2 have to do with it? (Sam beat me to it...)
#4,5,6: does need a dull witted defender but #6 sounds illegal (4,5 legal)

Coach, #2 is illegal.

In the "spirit and intent" of the thread, it's illegal.

By rule, there is the possibility that #2 could be deemed as a shot attempt. So overall, saying it is always illegal, is wrong.
:cool:

Say what? what official will deem this a shot attempt if he or she observe the intent of the player?

Sheez... someday I'll learn to type. Editted to fix.

Yea, but I don't think of fumbling as something that someone does. It's something that happens to ya. I mean, you're not just standing there, and you just sort of fumble. I mean I do, but that's why I don't play. I was thinking of something planned and intentional.

Maybe some day you'll learn to spell too.:D

Coach, the sort of general rule is that if something isn't specifically written into a case or sitch, then it's not part of the consideration. Since nothing was said here about a basket, or backboard or anything else regarding a shot, it couldn't possibly be a shot.

I mean, you're right, if it looked like it was supposed to be a shot, it's legal. But then it would have been written into the case.

Coach,
These two case plays provide the answers to all of the questions posed.

4.15.4 SITUATION D: While dribbling: (a) A1 bats the ball over the head of an opponent, runs around the opponent, bats the ball to the floor and continues to dribble; (b) the ball bounces away but A1 is able to get to it and continues to dribble; (c) the ball hits A1's foot and bounces away but A1 is able to overtake and pick it up; or (d) A1 fumbles the ball in ending the dribble so that A1 must run to recover it. RULING: Violation in (a), because the ball was touched twice by A1's hand(s) during a dribble, before it touched the floor. In (b), even though the dribble was interrupted it has not ended and A1 may continue the dribble. In (c), the dribble ended when A1 caught the ball; and it ended in (d) when it was fumbled. Even though the dribble has ended in (c) and (d), A1 may recover the ball. (9-5)

4.15.4 SITUATION E: (a) A1 tosses the ball from one hand to the other while keeping his/her pivot foot in contact with the floor; or (b) A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. RULING: Legal in (a), but an illegal dribble violation in (b). In (b), since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is an illegal dribble. (9-5)

In #1 A1 could fumble and retrieve as stated in 4.15.4 SitD part (d).
#2 is an illegal dribble per 4.15.4 Sit E part (b).
#3 since the ball is allowed to strike the floor, this is a legal dribble per 4-15-3 and the converse of the ruling in 4.15.4 Sit E part (b).
#4 is legal per the converse of 4.15.4 Sit D part (a) as the dribbler did not touch the ball twice before it struck the floor.
#5 is the same as number four, but, of course, the player is allowed to pivot after ending the dribble.
#6 illegal dribble per 4.15.4 Sit D part (a).

you are so picky:p .

Aw, I was just talking about "can't do much of anything that involves letting go of the ball and then touching it again". :)

#1-- or A1 can attempt a try
#2 -- Hey, if A1 is in the backcourt and tosses the ball over B1's head and catches it in the backcourt, I agree. That is why I said previously "spirit and intent of the thread" as Juulie never mentioned backboard, rim, etc. But just wanted to point out a sitch exists (catching your own airball) where it is not considered an illegal dribble.

an overview to this thread......
 

One of the things we frequently hear from "knowledgeable" coaches and fans is:
"You can't pass it to yourself." This is true, but not for the reason that many think.

4-31: A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats, or rolls the ball to another player.

The point is that when a player releases the ball, and then retrieves it himself, whether it is a legal play or not, by definition it is not a pass.

How do you know that? You can not determine that with what the OP stated. What I stated that was deleted by the Mods was entirely correct, though they stated it wasn't. There are a lot of things in this game that you cannot say for sure and i was merely trying to point that out. When you consider the question can you pass the ball to yourself? The answer is yes and no, depending on the situation!

Retreiving the ball constitues an ILLEGAL Dribble, not a DOUBLE Dribble. Double dribbler is bouncing the ball with 2 hands at the same time or dribbling stop dribbling again. Learn the difference. Also, it is possible to throw the ball over the head of an opponent and retrieve it while dribbling. Have you ever heard of batting the ball upwards. Dribble has not ended.

Hey, Old Drool. There is no violation in NF called "double" dribble. Dribbling violations are all referred to as "illegal" dribble. What's the point of "learning the difference" if there is only one call and one mechanic? The only exception is for a "carry", but technically that is still an "illegal" dribble.

BTW - speaking of rules, it's "i before e except after c", not "i before e except after retr".

Can you cite where I may find the term "double dribble" in any rulebook?

Btw, is it illegal to bounce the ball with 2 hands?

I'm going to say that you cannot bounce the ball with 2 hands at the exact same time, that is for official terms, an illegal dribble, Snaqs may call it a double (illegal) dribble, but in either case, it's a violation. Am I misinterpreting something here? Is this not an illegal dribble?

Yes, you can.
Yes, you are.
No, it's not.

Actually, I can say it with about 99% certainty. In order to throw a ball, one must be holding it. A pass may in fact be a "bat" or a "tap," but the OP stated "throw." That means, from what I could read, he intended the passer to be holding the ball before it was released. If is holding the ball after he has dribbled, that dribble has ended.No, it was not correct. As has been stated, you cannot, by definition, pass to yourself, since a pass is a ball moved from one person to another. The original post asked if a player could throw the ball to himself, and it was later brought up whether this could be done after the dribble had been used. The answer to this question is emphatically "no."

Let me break down what I wrote for you. I used "double" because it's how most fans and coaches refer to it. I put the term "illegal" in parentheses because that's how the rules refer to it. Case in point. Thank you.Throwing and batting are completely different things, even when their purpose is the same. For an illustration, see the rule break down on what can be done with .2 seconds on the clock. A dribbling player may bat the ball upwards without necessarily ending his dribble. Throwing it, however, is a dribble killer.

It depends.

Coach P is right.

Bouncing the ball with 2 hands at the exact same time is <b>NOT</b> an illegal dribble and a violation. Nor has it ever been an illegal dribble and a violation in any ruleset- NFHS, NCAA or NBA.

It's just another case of your failure to understand the most basic of rules.

Touching the ball with both hands at the same time while dribbling legally <b>ends</b> a dribble. If you dribble <b>again</b>, it now becomes an illegal (second) dribble. Iow, it is legal to bounce the ball with 2 hands at the end of a dribble. It is illegal to touch the ball after that though unless it touches or is touched by another player first.

Of course, you also can always legally <b>start</b> a dribble by bouncing the ball with both hands and then legally continue to dribble.

Please someone make him stop! :mad: My head hurts again. :(

Power Dribble From Post Player
 

From Jurassic Referee: " It is legal to bounce the ball with 2 hands at the end of a dribble. You also can always legally start a dribble by bouncing the ball with both hands."

Jurassic Referee's statement correctly describes a power dribble move often used by post players. Catch the ball with two hands with your back to the basket, start your dribble with two hands, moving at an angle toward the basket, after only one dribble, catch the ball with both hands, begin to take a step to the basket and make the layup.

Actually, I don't believe that the wording of the first part is correct. I would phrase it as I've amended.
As you state a power dribble is a legal move, but that is because the bouncing of the ball with both hands comes at the start of the dribble, not at the end of it. I can't think of any situation in which it would be legal to bounce the ball with two hands at the end of a dribble. The power dribble is the only action that gives this appearance because the dribble is terminated after the single bounce, but if a player has bounced the ball several times and has player control then the statement in question isn't true.

Boolsh!t!

If you can find a rule anywhere that states it's illegal to end a dribble by bouncing it with both hands, cite it. It's legal to bounce the ball with both hands both at the start <b>AND</b> the end of a dribble.

Bouncing the ball with both hands legally ends a dribble, as per NFHHS rule 4-15-4(c). It's illegal to be the first player to touch the ball again after it's been bounced with both hands, as per NFHS rule 9-5.

Your linguistic gobblydegook sureashell is no help at all in trying to help newer officials understand the rule. :rolleyes:

NF 4-15-4(c) states the dribble ends when the dribbler simultaneously touches (not bounces) the ball with both hands.

So if the ball is coming up on a dribble bounce and the player touches both hands to the ball, the dribble ends at that point. If the result of that touching with both hands is that the ball returns to the floor, then you have an illegal dribble (unless it's a fumble). Conclusion: it is not legal to bounce the ball with both hands at the end of a dribble.

I'm confused. I thought it was the subsquent touch by the player last touching the ball with both hands that created the illegal dribble. So, after a two hand grab ends his/her dribble, A1 can't make a two-handed bounce pass to A2? I'm not seeing that in the rules, help please?

If, after catching or touching the ball with both hands, A1 dribbles again (regardless of whether that touch starts the dribble or whether, after catching the ball from his dribble he starts another one) it's an illegal dribble. However, if after touching (or catching) the ball with both hands, he passes (bounce or otherwise), it is not a violation.

I agree. So when you wrote this:

you were just kidding around? ;)

Please tell me that you're not serious. Are you really going to call an illegal second dribble if a player bounce-passes the ball to another player at the end of a dribble

The act of touching the ball with both hands ends a dribble but that act by itself is not illegal. There are no restrictions as to <b>how</b> you touch the ball with both hands. If you think differently, then cite a rule.

Thanks for being the third person to make this point. Old and slooooooooowwwwwwwww. :D

Guys - I took JRs post about bouncing the ball with both hands at the end of a dribble to imply you could dribble with both hands again for your "final" dribble, not that you could start a bounce pass. That was what I was addressing as being wrong. As I stated in my follow-up, obviously you can start a bounce pass with both hands after you have picked up your dribble.

I hope that's clear now.

You're not dribbling again though <b>if</b> you never touch the ball again after 2-hand bouncing it to end your dribble.

I know exactly what you were reading into it, Mark---the exact same thing that Nevada was trying to suggest. According to NFHS rule 4-15-1, one of the ways that you can start a dribble is by bouncing it to the floor with both hands. Unfortunately, to call it the way that you and Nevada are suggesting, you have to assume that <b>ALL</b> 2-handed bounces to the floor are the start of a dribble. Well, that's just not true. You can have a bounce pass, fumble, bounce the ball hard and then run past it, leaving it for a trailer to pick up, etc. If you call immediate violations on those as soon as the dribbler pushes the ball to the floor, you will look like an idiot if it does turn out to be a bounce pass. You will also have no rules backing to make that call. To decide which is which, you have to wait until you see the result of the 2-handed bounce. If the player doing so does not touch the ball again, I don't know how anyone can say with certainty that it is a second illegal dribble. I also can't think of any definitive rule that states that it is a violation either.

To call the play properly, all I'm saying is that you have to wait and see what happens <b>after</b> the ball is 2-handedly bounced.

Hell, in my prime, I was young and slooooooooooow. I never was a Speedy Gonzalez like that Chuck Whatisname that used to post here.:)
http://literature.sdsu.edu/nericcio/1andalespeedy.jpg

What I was reading into it was this: I thought you meant that the last dribble could be with two hands without a violation.

Nope, I never said that. I said that the last dribble <b>ended</b> when it was touched with two hands. Whether there was a violation or not depends strictly on what happens <b>after</b> the last dribble ends. Make sense?

The words "linguistic gobblydegook" have to apply to you in this case, not me. As Padgett already wrote, the rule says "touches the ball with both hands", not "bounces".
What you are calling bouncing the ball with both hands "at the end" of a dribble truly takes place "AFTER" the end of the dribble.

Hopefully, that will clear this up for all those newer officials. :p

I repeat---complete and utter boolsh!t.

If your nonsense was true, a dribbler couldn't throw a bounce pass without violating.

Stoopid monkey......

Picture this. Last second thing. Team A clears a side for star player to take the last shot. He receives a pass on the wing, takes a couple of dribbles, and stops to let time wind down. BUT, he forgets that he has no dribble left. (it happens)
When he head fakes his guy and puts the ball on the floor to start his move, is this not an immediate violation? It was not a fumble. He is the only one on his team on this whole side of the floor, so it is not a pass. So by definition 4-15-4
would this not be a violation when he "pushes the ball to the floor once" whether he subsequently touches it or not?

Yep, looks like you agree. BTW the bold was even JR's, not mine. :)


Dribbler's don't throw bounce passes, you know that. Players throw bounce passes either before dribbling or after ending a dribble. :p

Rule 4-15-4 states that the dribble ended. It's got nothing to do with a violation that occurs after that. Rule 9-5 covers the violation.

If he pushes the ball to the floor once and then runs away from it, are you going to call that an illegal dribble also under 9-5? Iow, if he just drops the ball without touching it again, are you going to call that an illegal dribble? Or are you going to wait and see the result of the play?

Gee, call me silly but if I'm going to call an illegal dribble, I'm going to make sure that there actually <b>was</b> a dribble. That's just me though. You and Nevada can call it any way you want. And good luck to both of you.

Exactly! And now maybe you can explain why <b>you</b> are going to call a violation on someone who just legally threw a damn bounce pass <b>after</b> ending their dribble. If you make that call <b>before</b> you see the the result of the complete play, that's exactly what you're doing. And good luck with that.:rolleyes:

Now my head hurts, please make him stop.....

Simple remedy. Don't try to understand anything that you don't have any knowledge at all about....like actual rules.

Going by this statement in bold alone, then the power dribble is illegal, the start and stop of a two-handed dribble is illegal.

As far as your comment about helping or not helping newer officials understand the rules. You can add yourself to this list because what you just stated sureashell ain't clear. This whole double dribble topic ain't clear unless of course you think mud is clear. Likewise, though a lot of new officials frequent this site, the majority of interaction here is with veteran officials. Give it a rest!

Rule 4-15-4c: says the dribble ends when the dribbler simultaneously touches the ball with both hands. This is not clear but I can now reason that you can start a dribble with 2 hands and end a dribbler with 2 hands, and you can start/end a dribble with 2 hands as in the power dribble move, but you cannot dribble down the court with 2 hands continuously. That was my point.

Great discussion, I've learned a lot here, this forum as it's best. Though I think this is a great forum for new officials to come and ask questions to learn. I think it is priceless for the veteran official, you just like some have said (Rainmaker) here, have to weigh thru a lot of bullsh!t to get the correct answer.

Wrong. As said previously, you fail to comprehend what I posted, as well as what the rule actually is.

But, you can't go "by the bold alone." yOu have to read in context.

For example, I could have bolded "dribble is illegal" in your sentence.

Then, I could write -- going by the bold part alone, all dribbles are illegal. But, I won't, because that would be wrong.

By definition, a dribble is when the ball is pushed to the floor. Therefore, in my judgment, if the first push to the floor is a dribble, not a drop, not a bounce pass, that is when the violation occurs, not on a second touch. What if the defender picks his pocket after the ball is first pushed to the floor, does this save a violation? I think not.

The "power dribble" is legal if you break it down. A1 pushes the ball to the floor with two hands. This is the start of a dribble and it doesn't matter if A1 uses one hand or two. If A1 touches the ball again, with two hands, this ends the dribble. Move to the basket completes the play. Don't be confused by the fact that the dribble started legally by pushing the ball to the floor with two hands.

BTW and I really hate to say this, but your BS is the only BS that I consider to be alot of BS that I have to weigh through, JMO.

Then you have your personal blinders on. BS is BS, no matter where it comes from, and if you think I'm the only one out here serving up BS, then I really hate to tell you, you are truly blind, JMO.:D

I never said you were the only one serving up BS. Nothing personal either, JMO.

Just thought I'd provide an example of what happens when you pull a quote completely out of context and try to use it to make a point.

JR has been more than clear when you put all his posts in here together, of course so has Nevada.

How do you know if it's a dribble? You don't know until it comes up. How many drop passes look like dribbles? How many passes turn into dribbles? Just wait the split second it takes for the ball to come back up and hit the bouncer's hand before calling the violation.

According to R4-15-3, a dribble starts when a player pushes, <b>throws or bats the ball</b> to the floor. And, according to R4-31, a <b>pass</b> occurs when a player <b>throws, bats</b> or rolls the ball to another player. He can also legally <b>throw or bat</b> the ball to the floor at the start of the pass too. How do you differentiate between the <b>throw or bat</b> that start both a dribble and a pass then? Answer- <b>you</b> and Nevada don't. You both say that throw or bat <b>has</b> to be a second dribble and you call a violation.

If you can determine instantly the split-second that a ball leaves the player's hands after he's ended his dribble that his throw or bat is actually a dribble and not a pass, you're a helluva lot better official than I am. Dare I say....you're almost god-like.

Note that a two-handed bounce pass and a two-handed power dribble by definition are started </b>exactly</b> the same way.

I'm tired of repeating the same thing over and over.You and Nevada call it any way you want. I'd just like to be there the first time that a player does pass the ball and you two call that pass an illegal dribble.

That ain't gonna happen.
Both those guys are too good for that to happen.

If it doesn't happen, then they ain't following their professed play-calling philosophy.

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Dribbler's don't throw bounce passes, you know that. Players throw bounce passes either before dribbling or after ending a dribble.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Where did I say anything about doing that? :confused:


Again, from where are you deriving that this is my opinion. :confused:
Please go back through this entire thread and cite exactly where I took this position that you are assigning to me. :(

As usual, JR's opinion is based on his unequaled knowledge of the rules. I respect this greatly. But, again, as usual, JR's opinion in this case is carried to an extreme. (I'm right, you're wrong...end of discussion) Are there cases where it is uncertain what A1's intention is when he releases the ball? Certainly there could be, in which case one might wait a little longer to let the play unfold. But there are also cases when it is quite obvious that when A1 releases the ball it is indeed a dribble, nothing else, and if he has no dribble, when this ball hits the floor it is a violation. I'm done.

1) No. How do you know it wasn't a pass?

2) No. How do you know it wasn't a pass?

How come you're changing your tune now? Going back to the post of yours above that I answered (again), you stated that it was an <b>"immediate violation"</b>. Now you're advocating letting the play unfold? How can you know for <b>sure</b> which is which <b>unless</b> you let the play unfold?

How can you explain away the language of rule 4-31, which defines a "pass"? In both the definitions of a "dribble" and a "pass", the ball is thrown or batted.

You need to make up your mind.

This is simply not true. Even if it's obvious that the player intends to dribble ( for example, bounce is right next to his foot and it bounces straight back up) if he realizes that he goofed and then never touches the ball after the initial push, it can't be called a dribble, imo. I know the wording of the rule book makes this seem to be not right, but I think it's another case of bad wording. Clearly, a dribble is a way to move legally with the ball, and if someone doesn't continue to move "with" the ball, but relinquishes control, how can it be a dribble?

There is a specific case where A1 intends to pass the ball, but A2 runs away and A1 goes and recovers the ball (after it bounces. The "pass" becones a "dribble."

It seems to me (and this is just an opinion) that the opposite is also true -- a "dribble" can become a "pass".

This, like so many others, is a judgment call. If, in my judgment, it is clearly a dribble when pushed to the floor, that is when it is a violation.

Not changing my tune at all. I merely acknowledged the idea that a move could appear to be one thing but could dissolve into something else. If this is the case, hold the whistle. But, in my opinion, the vast majority of times that a player puts the ball on the floor to start a dribble, it is virtually unmistakable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref
But there are also case when it is quite obvious that when A1 releases the ball it is indeed a dribble, nothing else, and if he has no dribble, when this ball hits the floor it is a violation. I'm done.




Why not?

4-15-4: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player.......who bats or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times.

A single push to the floor, by definition, constitutes a dribble. It is unnecessary for anything else to happen. Judgment. In the example above you said it was obvious the player intended to dribble. That does it for me. Suppose A1 and A2 have a two on none fast break. A1 picks up his dribble in the lane and throws a high arching pass toward the corner, anticipating A2 will spot up for 3. Meanwhile A2 has stopped and headed back to play defense, anticipating A1 shooting a layup. A1 hustles after the ball and manages to grab it before it goes out of bounds. Is this a violation? How do you know it wasn't a really bad shot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref
Are there cases where it is uncertain what A1's intention is when he releases the ball? Certainly there could be, in which case one might wait a little longer to let the play unfold. But there are also case when it is quite obvious that when A1 releases the ball it is indeed a dribble, nothing else, and if he has no dribble, when this ball hits the floor it is a violation. I'm done.







If you can describe a specific case of this, I'd be glad to kick it around.

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by bob jenkins
There is a specific case where A1 intends to pass the ball, but A2 runs away and A1 goes and recovers the ball (after it bounces. The "pass" becomes a "dribble."

It seems to me (and this is just an opinion) that the opposite is also true -- a "dribble" can become a "pass".

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

I quoted the NFHS ruling(interp) to which bob refers, in which A1 intends to throw a pass, but it turns into a dribble, way back in post #16 of this thread.

As for the second part, there is strong evidence in the case book that the player does indeed need to be the first to touch the ball after it bounces for the action to constitute a dribble and thus a violation. Presumably, in either of the cases below, if the player simply left the ball alone after it hit the floor, then a teammate could come along and grab it. The action would turn into a legal pass, and no violation should be called.

4.44.3 SITUATION A: A1 jumps to try for goal. B1 also jumps and: (a) slaps the ball out of A1's hands; (b) touches the ball but does not prevent A1 from releasing the ball; (c) touches the ball and A1 returns to the floor holding the ball; or (d) touches the ball and A1 drops it to the floor and touches it first after it bounces. RULING: In (a) and (b), the ball remains live. In (c), a traveling violation. In (d), a violation for starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. Since the touching did not prevent the pass or try in (b), (c) and (d), the ball remains live and subsequent action is covered by rules which apply to the situation.

4.44.3 SITUATION B: A1 receives the ball with both feet off the floor and he/she lands simultaneously on both feet without establishing a pivot foot. A1 then jumps off both feet in an attempt to try for goal, but realizing the shot may be blocked, A1 drops the ball to the floor and dribbles. RULING: A1 has traveled as one foot must be considered to be the pivot and must be on the floor when the ball is released to start a dribble. The fact that no pivot foot had been established does not alter this ruling.

4-15-3: The dribble may be started by <font color = red>pushing, throwing or batting the ball</font> to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.

4-31: A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who <font color = red>throws, bats or rolls the ball</font> to another player.

A single push to the floor, by definition, constitutes a <font color = red>pass</font> if the ball goes to another player. It is unnecessary for anything else to happen. Judgment.

The only "judgment" needed is to wait and see what happens, and then make the call by the <b>rules</b>.

Mis-calling an adjudged illegal dribble on the two-handed bounce pass before the player retouches the ball would not be so different from mis-calling traveling when a player lifts the pivot foot before the pivot foot retouches.

The difference is that the definition of travel specifically states "the pivot foot may be lifted but not returned to the floor" in applicable situations. Is there anywhere that mentions any form of "ball may not be pushed to the floor and then touched again" in the definition of a dribble or the description of an illegal dribble?

To me, it's a bit of a philosophy thing. There are a few times when a legitimate interpretation allows you to allow a play to continue, and an alternative interpretation would have you calling a violation. In this case, you [bold]could[/bold] call it a dribble as soon as it's pushed to the floor. Personally, I prefer to let action continue if the rules allow me to. In my view, it's not a dribble until it's touched after the bounce. 99.9% of the time, it wouldn't matter, because it's going to come back to his hand and your whistle isn't going to blow until it does just because of human reaction time. That one time, however, when he realizes it after he releases and lets it go to allow a teammate to recover, is the time I'm going to be glad I didn't try to judge his intent. I'd hate to have to explain to my assigner that I called it an ID because I [bold]knew[/bold] it was a dribble even though he never touched it.

Again, though, if the rules allow me to let play continue, I'd prefer to go that route.

Yes. 9-5 Player ends dribble, but it is a violation to dribble again.

Padgett started a thread about smartest plays. Some of the smartest plays I've seen involve players who know what the intent of the rules are with respect to when a dribble starts and how that differs from a potential pass.

Yes, a reasonable person *might* conclude the dribble "starts" when the ball is released towards the floor. Frankly you need to think about it more broadly to understand that what begins as a pass might turn out to be a dribble and vice versa. There is no judgment involved, just wait to see what happens next.

Basketball rule fundamental #19 -> the backboard [except thrower's backboard] is treated the same as the floor inbunds.

Case 9.5 situation [substituting word *floor* for *backboard* (per fundamental #19)] Player ends dribble. Throwing the ball against *floor* or an official constitutes another dribble, provided thrower is first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the *floor*.

At first I thought you typed "inbuns" and I was going to make a comment about cheerleader's "backboards". :rolleyes:

No. I purposely screwed that word to inbund which in Hindi or Urdu means the embankment which contains the flow of the river or the *flow of the game*. [Hmmmm, would that be FIBA ball?]

...Or, it was dark and I couldn't see the proper letter to touch.

This is a good argument, but I think in this case it is clear that when the player threw the ball against the board, he did not intend it to be a dribble. It has already been documented that what started as a pass can become a dribble. What has not been documented is when what clearly starts as an illegal dribble can become a pass. If there is any doubt whatsoever about the player's intent, let it play out, as in the case above. But, I am picturing a play where A1 is isolated against B1, nobody else in the picture.
He leans one way, perhaps gives a head fake, then steps hard to the basket and pushes the ball straight to the floor. As written, my interpretation is when the ball strikes the floor it is a dribble. My idea is that the rule does not allow him to bail himself out if he suddenly remembers and yells, "Hey, B2, come get this pass!"

I am gonna grasp at straws a bit now.
9-3 note: The dribbler has committed a violation if he/she steps on or outside a boundary, even though he/she is not touching the ball while he/she is out of bounds.

In other words, if the dribbler pushes the ball to the floor, then steps on the line, it is an immediate violation, without any need for him to touch the ball again.

That's a rule, but it's goofy and subject to varying opinions. I think one must judge intent in that case to even begin to rationalize a call because *Player Control* comes into play, but touch again does not.

It seems to me that if this happens on the sideline [with a lone dribbler] is one thing, and if it happens near the endline where a dribbler drops a dime [behind him] to a following teammate, then steps outa bounds, it is quite another.

The rule needs help. ;)

Isn't that what this whole discussion is about, when you boil it down? Varying opinions and judging intent. Varying opinions is a constant we must deal with everywhere we go. Judging intent is a challenge, but it is something we must be prepared to do at times.