WIERD SITUATION

[TXMATTHEW05]

I'm an official varsity scorer. This was a home game, and although some of you may think I'm "just a scorer", I know enough to officiate - I will get certified in August. But anywho, here's the situation.

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G21 on breakaway. Clearly fouled by W15. As the official reports, he puts foul on G21. We give him a funny look, and then he says - "Sorry, sorry, WHITE 21, push"

The thing was, that was a completely incorrect call. White 21 was at the other end of the court. Shortly after, the quarter ended, and we called the head referee over. He says the guy blew the call, and he doesn't know if it's correctable or not. He talks to the other official that made the call at half time, and he swears up and down that it was correct. Before the second half, the head referee comes back and says that he agrees with us, but he doesn't know if it's correctable or not. He then talks about if I (the scorer), ever has a question about a call, to stop and talk about it. Now I'm not going to do that if the call goes against the home team, but if it was a clear mistake (as above), then I will, yes, do it again. The girls lost by about 10 points, and the girl the foul was put on fouled out, which may have made a difference.

The next night, I got a second opinion from a different referee. He agreed with the head referee, and said as official scorer, I have the authority to change the book if I feel something is wrong. I guess I have more authority then I thought.

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Now, the referee that called that foul is an idiot. No offense; I NEVER yell at a referee for any calls, what-so-ever (one exception, I'll tell about it later), but this guy DOES NOT know what he was doing. He never makes his calls right, his mechanics suck; he's just a bad referee. I understand what you guys are going to say, but he was just THAT BAD. Don't bite my head off - you'd of had to of been there. But what is your opinion on this?

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by TXMATTHEW05
I'm an official varsity scorer. This was a home game, and although some of you may think I'm "just a scorer", I know enough to officiate - I will get certified in August. But anywho, here's the situation.

NEVER say you're just a scorer!!!!

G21 on breakaway. Clearly fouled by W15. As the official reports, he puts foul on G21. We give him a funny look, and then he says - "Sorry, sorry, WHITE 21, push"

I'd suggest you ask a gentle question here - was 21 the player who fouled or who got fouled? It's obvious there was a mix-up as to the color, and this is a way to plant a seed in the ref's mind without becoming confrontational.

The thing was, that was a completely incorrect call. White 21 was at the other end of the court. Shortly after, the quarter ended, and we called the head referee over. He says the guy blew the call, and he doesn't know if it's correctable or not. He talks to the other official that made the call at half time, and he swears up and down that it was correct.

Who fouled or who was fouled is a judgement call that cannot be overridden by the referee.

Before the second half, the head referee comes back and says that he agrees with us, but he doesn't know if it's correctable or not.

This is definately one of the official "correctible errors." I'm going to vote that this is not correctable. Bookkeeping mistakes can be fixed - if an official knows he called 3 fouls on #21, but only 2 show in the book, the record can be changed to 3. In your case, the foul was properly reported and recorded (even if charged to someone other than the fouler).

He then talks about if I (the scorer), ever has a question about a call, to stop and talk about it. Now I'm not going to do that if the call goes against the home team, but if it was a clear mistake (as above), then I will, yes, do it again.

WHOA!! By saying you won't point out something that helps the home team, you lose all credibility as a scorer! If there is an error in either direction, point it out. You should feel comfortable questioning a few foul calls (i.e., I've seen where a foul is called on red 14, and red 14 is on the bench - that needs to be brought to the officials' attention!).

The next night, I got a second opinion from a different referee. He agreed with the head referee, and said as official scorer, I have the authority to change the book if I feel something is wrong. I guess I have more authority then I thought.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no!!! If you feel something is wrong, and the officials approve the change, change it. Simply changing the official book will get you in trouble real fast. Example: Official calls a foul on Red 14, but you decide to switch it to Red 51 (without telling anyone). Red 51 then fouls, and (according to the book) it is his 5th foul. Red coach and book show Red 51 as having only four fouls. Technical foul on red coach.

No offense; I NEVER yell at a referee for any calls, what-so-ever (one exception, I'll tell about it later)

There is no exception when you are at the scorer's table - whether as a scorer or anything else.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by TXMATTHEW05
I'm an official varsity scorer. This was a home game, and although some of you may think I'm "just a scorer", I know enough to officiate - I will get certified in August. But anywho, here's the situation.

--------

G21 on breakaway. Clearly fouled by W15. As the official reports, he puts foul on G21. We give him a funny look, and then he says - "Sorry, sorry, WHITE 21, push"

The thing was, that was a completely incorrect call. White 21 was at the other end of the court. Shortly after, the quarter ended, and we called the head referee over. He says the guy blew the call, and he doesn't know if it's correctable or not. He talks to the other official that made the call at half time, and he swears up and down that it was correct. Before the second half, the head referee comes back and says that he agrees with us, but he doesn't know if it's correctable or not. He then talks about if I (the scorer), ever has a question about a call, to stop and talk about it. Now I'm not going to do that if the call goes against the home team, but if it was a clear mistake (as above), then I will, yes, do it again. The girls lost by about 10 points, and the girl the foul was put on fouled out, which may have made a difference.

The next night, I got a second opinion from a different referee. He agreed with the head referee, and said as official scorer, I have the authority to change the book if I feel something is wrong. I guess I have more authority then I thought.

--------

Now, the referee that called that foul is an idiot. No offense; I NEVER yell at a referee for any calls, what-so-ever (one exception, I'll tell about it later), but this guy DOES NOT know what he was doing. He never makes his calls right, his mechanics suck; he's just a bad referee. I understand what you guys are going to say, but he was just THAT BAD. Don't bite my head off - you'd of had to of been there. But what is your opinion on this?

It is not one of the 5 correctable errors.However,the foul can be changed by the referee at any time during the game(R2-11-11),if the referee is sure that a mistake was made.A bookkeeping mistake can be changed at any time.The scorer cannot change the foul in the book himself.He can only change it if told to do so by the referee.Good luck on your officiating career.One of the first things you will be told is to keep all criticsms in-house.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

1) If the calling official made a mistake when reporting the player who committed the foul to the Official Scorer, the calling official can change his mistake at any time. This is a mistake by an official and is not a correctable error.

2) If you thought that the calling official made a mistake when reporting the foul, intead of talking to the head referee (as you called him, and if indeed he was the head referee his correct designation is Referee), you should have talked with the calling the offical (an idiot you called him, but most likely the Umpire if his partner is the Referee).

3) The calling official is the only person who can change the player who committed the foul, not his partner or partners (even if his partner is the Referee) and ESPECIALLY NOT YOU. The offical (in your next game) who told you that you, the Officail Scorer, can change the player on your own initiative is WRONG. The Official Scorer does not have the authority to change the book because he thinks the calling official is wrong.

4) The comments that the Referee made to you about believing you are correct and that his partner was incorrect was unprofessional and unethical. And as a member of the IAABO Visualization and Education Committee I hope that he was not a member of IAABO because he has disgraced the officiating profession.

5) And likewise, the official in the game you had the next night, was equally unprofessional and unethical in making the comments he made to you conerning the calling official in the previous game.

6) You do NOT know diddly squat about officiating basketball. I do not know where you live but you need to take a course in basketball officiating so that you will learn how absolutely little you know. And one of the cardinal rules of the officiating profession is to not make public criticisms of an official whether you are an offical in the sport or an official in another sport.


I work very hard at getting officials to be treated in an ethical and professional manner as well getting officials to conduct themselves in an ethical and professional manner. You have a lot to learn.

[TXMATTHEW05]

NEVER say you're just a scorer!!!!

The Head Referee made it very clear that we are on the same team. I'm part of the officiating team.

I'd suggest you ask a gentle question here - was 21 the player who fouled or who got fouled? It's obvious there was a mix-up as to the color, and this is a way to plant a seed in the ref's mind without becoming confrontational.

The reason I didn't say anything at first is that I was afraid I'd be out of place. I didn't want to humiliate the guy in front of anybody; I didn't know what to do - I never have been in that situation before.

Who fouled or who was fouled is a judgement call that cannot be overridden by the referee.

After we addressed the referee, the timer said that we could of changed it and put the foul on the correct person, and nobody would of known the difference. The visiting scorer agreed with that tactic. However, I didn't know if that was legal, and what would happen if we were busted.

This is definately one of the official "correctible errors." I'm going to vote that this is not correctable. Bookkeeping mistakes can be fixed - if an official knows he called 3 fouls on #21, but only 2 show in the book, the record can be changed to 3. In your case, the foul was properly reported and recorded (even if charged to someone other than the fouler).

He was sure it was correctable, though he didn't say to correct it. He said I should of said something when it happened; that was MY fault. It has now established precedent, however.

WHOA!! By saying you won't point out something that helps the home team, you lose all credibility as a scorer! If there is an error in either direction, point it out. You should feel comfortable questioning a few foul calls (i.e., I've seen where a foul is called on red 14, and red 14 is on the bench - that needs to be brought to the officials' attention!).

No, you mis-understood. I meant if the call was correct and went against my school's team (if we are home), I'm not going to challenge the call.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no!!! If you feel something is wrong, and the officials approve the change, change it. Simply changing the official book will get you in trouble real fast. Example: Official calls a foul on Red 14, but you decide to switch it to Red 51 (without telling anyone). Red 51 then fouls, and (according to the book) it is his 5th foul. Red coach and book show Red 51 as having only four fouls. Technical foul on red coach.

That's different. It was an incorrect call on the official. As the official scorer, and as part of the officiating team, I have a responsibility to make sure the game is fair and correct at all times. While I see what you're saying, do you see what I'm saying? EVERYBODY in that gym KNEW and THOUGHT it was called on White 15.

There is no exception when you are at the scorer's table - whether as a scorer or anything else.

I most certainly do not yell at a referee as a scorer. If I'm in the stands (and I hardly EVER do), I may yell. Like today, a girl threw a ball at the referee (THREW THE BALL), and he didn't call anything. Then the same girl got up in his face, screaming, didn't call anything. The girl's coach forfeited the game, as it was getting out of hand. One girl had to be taken the ER - and the same girl at the next game was calling the referee "stupid skanks". I will be refereeing this league next year, and if she EVER says or does anything like that to me, I will personally make sure she is T'd up. (When she was calling the ref's stupid skanks, she was in the stands - I would of thrown her out. She can't be more than 11!)

[TXMATTHEW05]

Thanks, Jurassic Referee. I appreciate your support, really.

[TXMATTHEW05]

1) If the calling official made a mistake when reporting the player who committed the foul to the Official Scorer, the calling official can change his mistake at any time. This is a mistake by an official and is not a correctable error.

If I may ask, could I have a rule book explanation?

2) If you thought that the calling official made a mistake when reporting the foul, intead of talking to the head referee (as you called him, and if indeed he was the head referee his correct designation is Referee), you should have talked with the calling the offical (an idiot you called him, but most likely the Umpire if his partner is the Referee).

EXCUSE ME. And, FYI, I waved over the "Referee" because he was the only one that saw us waving.

3) The calling official is the only person who can change the player who committed the foul, not his partner or partners (even if his partner is the Referee) and ESPECIALLY NOT YOU. The offical (in your next game) who told you that you, the Officail Scorer, can change the player on your own initiative is WRONG. The Official Scorer does not have the authority to change the book because he thinks the calling official is wrong.

Perhaps I mis-understood. It happens. But I pride myself in my work; I DO NOT make mistakes. The fact of the matter is is the referee that worked the game this incident happend agreed that was an incorrect call, but wasn't sure if it was correctable or not. That's what I'm getting at. I had the referee on my side.

4) The comments that the Referee made to you about believing you are correct and that his partner was incorrect was unprofessional and unethical. And as a member of the IAABO Visualization and Education Committee I hope that he was not a member of IAABO because he has disgraced the officiating profession.

How dare you critize him? You go against your own hatred. You don't even know the man and you critize him! You remember that when a dad is howling at you to call a foul. Maybe he IS right...

And no, he isn't a member of the IAABO. He's a member of the North Carolina High School Athletic Association, that goes by NFHS rules.

5) And likewise, the official in the game you had the next night, was equally unprofessional and unethical in making the comments he made to you conerning the calling official in the previous game

I'll make a mental note. :rollseyes:

6) You do NOT know diddly squat about officiating basketball. I do not know where you live but you need to take a course in basketball officiating so that you will learn how absolutely little you know. And one of the cardinal rules of the officiating profession is to not make public criticisms of an official whether you are an offical in the sport or an official in another sport.

I know TONS about basketball. You are in no position to place judgement on me. Just because you think you know it all, seen it all, lived it all, doesn't give you the authority to judge who I am and what I know. I regret posting this, as I get somebody to reply such as yourself that is getting a nosebleed from having his head held up so high. YOU yourself disgrace the profession of officiating, as you only encourage the stereotype for referees.

[zebraman]

It's not a correctable error, but the calling official could have had you change it at any time if he had definite knowledge that a screw-up had been made. If everyone else at the table backed you up, maybe his memory could have been "jogged." If not, let it go.

Once you become a referee and work a lot of games, you'll understand why we're a loyal group and we "have each other's back." Calling a referee an idiot is way, way, way, way out of line. Very poor judgment on your part. Besides, if his association thought he was as bad as you do, he wouldn't get varsity games.

Z

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

1) You will find the list of correctable errors in NFHS R2-S10.

2) Yes, you talked to the Referee, but you did not talk to the calling official. The non-calling official should have the calling official come to the Scorer/Table and address your question.

3) You may have thought the calling official was wrong, but once he made his ruling, there is no more issues to discuss.

4) I damn well will criticize the non-calling the official for his conduct as you described it. The non-callling official may well have disagreed with his partner but it was unethical and unprofessional conduct on his part to discuss his opinion of the situation. You can go to the NASO or NFHS websites and see model Codes of Ethics for sports officials. And I am sure that the North Carolina High School Athletic Association has a code of ethics for its officials that are remarkably similar to the ones the you will find at either of the NASO or NFHS websites.

IAABO (International Association of Approved Basketball Officials) is the largest basketball officials association in the country and the leading educator of basketball officials in the country. IAABO members have served on the NFHS Rules Committee in the past and still do so currently.

5) I damn well will criticize this official for his conduct as you described it. His conduc was unethical and unprofessional conduct on his part to discuss his opinion of the situation. You can go to the NASO or NFHS websites and see model Codes of Ethics for sports officials. And I am sure that the North Carolina High School Athletic Association has a code of ethics for its officials that are remarkably similar to the ones the you will find at either of the NASO or NFHS websites.

6) I do not take the position of judging you lightly. I stand by my earlier statement. You know nothing of the rules and mechanics of the game as well as ethical and professional conduct for sports officials. You can go to the NASO or NFHS websites and see model Codes of Ethics for sports officials.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by TXMATTHEW05
I most certainly do not yell at a referee as a scorer. If I'm in the stands (and I hardly EVER do), I may yell. Like today, a girl threw a ball at the referee (THREW THE BALL), and he didn't call anything. Then the same girl got up in his face, screaming, didn't call anything.

You imply you would yell in this situation if you were in the stands. I'm curious. What would you yell?

Also - you say you know "TONS about basketball." After you actually officiate, you will finally realize knowing "TONS about basketball" is nowhere near the same as knowing how a basketball game should be officiated.

However, welcome to the ranks and I wish you well.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
3) You may have thought the calling official was wrong, but once he made his ruling, there is no more issues to discuss.

[/B]

Mark T.,now I'm going to argue "rulebook verbiage" with you.When I answered above,I was well aware of R2-6(referees authority) and R2-7-5 on administering penalties.The problem is that R2-7-5 doesn't comment on administering penalties to the wrong player.If you read the original post,W21 was at the other end of the court when the foul occurred.It is completely unfair to charge W21 with this foul,especially if you and the scorer,etc. are absolutely sure that he was nowhere near the play.If you reference Casebook 2-11-10B,you will get the the following-"the situation is not due to the inadvertant setting aside of a rule but is a mistake in record keeping".The point is that an official caused the mistake in record keeping in this case,not the scorer.You are not trying to get an official to change his call.You are trying to make sure that the official's call was on the correct player.As a result,I will argue that the Referee can order a correction to be made to the book.In this case,I'd make the correction and tell my partner(s) that I'll take all the heat if there's a problem.Wrong is wrong!
Btw,don't be too hard on TXmatt.We need all the good young officials we can get.When he(hopefully) becomes one of us,he will also be (hopefully) taught how to deal with these situations without making his partners look bad.The officials'code and the importance of ethics,etc. will be part of his learning process.Cut him some slack until then.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

In the play posted, the Referee cannot change the scorebook on his own. He discussed the play with his partner. His partner was sure that he reported the correct player to the Official Scorer. Evidently, the Referee's information that he gave to his partner was not enough to convince his partner change the Official Scorebook.

I am sure that all of us at one time or another in an effort to make sure we put the right player on the free throw line has accidently reported the fouled player's number to the Scorer at first and then immediately corrected his mistake. Especially when you hit fifty years of age (I am a case in point).

The fact that this play was on a breakaway with all ten players spread out along the length of the court and the two officials seperated by at least seventy feet (I am just guessing here, but I would hope that everybody would understand the point I am trying to make) can compound the problem. I admit that I do not know how I would handle a situation like this. I have many officiating friends that if I told them that they got it wrong would believe me and if they told me that I got it wrong I would believe them. And there are officials that I have worked with that all bets are off on anything that they do on the court. We just have to make the best of what we got.

The major point that I have in this thread is this: I am very troubled by the conduct of the Referee in this game and his comments to the Scorer and any other S/T Table personnel who might have heard the comments. I first impression is to put this official and the official in the next evening's game in the group of officials where all bets are off.

[Jurassic Referee]

Mark T.,I can't argue with much in your last post.I think that all of us want to make sure we get the right call in a case like this,if we can.I was looking for a way to do that.I also agree that if we do come up with something,we should leave the impression that we all agree on the final decision-whether we do or not.I honestly think that,in this case,the scorer had exactly the right idea,too.Get it right!

[TXMATTHEW05]

Mark T Dunicci -

I understand what you were saying. But I do not respect nor agree with your...foundation of judgement upon the referee. As you said, you never speak ill of your colleagues. He's one of them. That's hypocritical.

Jurassic Referee -

Thank you for understanding what I was saying.

Mark Padgett -

Thanks.

[Doug]

Matthews,

Here is a little advice. One of the major things in officiating is politics. Once you become an official (or you may even know this as a scorer), you will realize this. You never what position another official or scorer might have, outside of that particular game. That official that you called an "idiot" could be an athletic director helping out or starting officiating and since you called him an idiot, he would NOT hire you, could be a varsity basketball coach doing soccer, in my area coaches usually book tourneys, and would proably blackball you for calling him that. In my area, there is a an official that the majority of us dislike. This individual has burned bridges w/ a lot of people, or vise versa. But, what most of the people who burn the bridges are unaware of, is this individual is a HUGE tournament director. It is better to be "friends" with everyone that you can. You don't have to necessarily do what they say, but be polite and hear them out.

Also, you said that you know "tons about basketball", this will get you jack, if you burn bridges with people. If we knew how little we really knew when we started officiating, we never would have stuck with it, I like that motto, and am now starting to comprehend it.

As a scorer, you are part of my team, you are as important if not more important than my crew. Without scorers, the game could not go! If you feel I have made a reporting mistake (NOT JUDGEMENT!), you let me know and we will talk it over and get it straightened out then, so we don't have to worry about correcting it (if it is a correctable error) later. YOu had the right idea, just be a little more sure of youself! You are part of the team, remember that, but NEVER appear cocky, arrogent, or act like you are all that and know everything there is to know about the sport. That is another way to burn a bridge and enter politics. who knows, that official you referred to as an idiot proably is, but degrading him during a game is in the rule book as something never should be done, especially by a scorer, tha is as bad as the other official calling his/her partner an idiot. politics is the downfall of many officials, you will find that as you move up, the political side increases also. from my expierence I have found that the more people you have on your side, the better.

Please don't take my post the wrong way, I think you will make a great official one day! and this forum is a valuable asset that I wish I knew about before or when I got started. Welcome to the world of officiating, you will find it to be a great one! Good luck, and have fun.

[Edited by Doug on Jan 13th, 2002 at 02:41 PM]