FBI investigating NBA ref

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

the reason you don't see so many of those "phantom calls" in the college game is because if you don't get KILLED then you don't have a foul.

This is completely absurd, and frankly insulting. What was the big complaint from the '07 NCAA championship game? They didn't let Oden play. Boo-hoo-hoo. They actually called fouls against him. And he didn't maim anybody. A couple of those foul calls were light contact but caused an advantage, and they got called.

College refs, imo, miss more plays on the side of no calls that should have been blown, whereas NBA refs miss more plays by blowing their whistle on plays that should have been no calls,

I'll agree with that.

but then again NBA guys have more accountability

But this is not the reason for your previous statement. The reason NCAA officials have more bad no-calls is that they're trained that way. If you don't KNOW, don't blow. It's not because they're not held accountable, it's because they taught that their bad calls should be no-calls. When you don't blow the whistle, the game goes on. But when you blow the whistle and you're wrong, the whole game stops, everybody looks at you and you give everybody a chance to chirp at you. You might not agree with that philosophy, but that's what's taught. Of course, they want to get it right every time, but we all know that's impossible. So if you're going to make mistakes, it's better (in the NCAA's thinking) to keep the game moving.

if a team who is up 20+ in a game drives to the hole and gets hit, with no doubt in anyones mind, the ref can pass on it and most will say that it was a good pass because that team is up 20.

I think you will find that with everything being taped and passed along to assignors, that way of thinking is changing. "The subs deserve the same officiating as the starters got".

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

But this is not the reason for your previous statement. The reason NCAA officials have more bad no-calls is that they're trained that way. If you don't KNOW, don't blow. It's not because they're not held accountable, it's because they taught that their bad calls should be no-calls. When you don't blow the whistle, the game goes on. But when you blow the whistle and you're wrong, the whole game stops, everybody looks at you and you give everybody a chance to chirp at you. You might not agree with that philosophy, but that's what's taught. Of course, they want to get it right every time, but we all know that's impossible. So if you're going to make mistakes, it's better (in the NCAA's thinking) to keep the game moving.

I understand what you are saying, but officials at the NBA level, once again, don't have the luxury of making their "bad calls" no calls. They also have to be certain of their plays as well. IMO, what is considered marginal contact in college is way different than what is marginal contact in the NBA. IMO, perimeter play is way too "handsy" in the college games. Guys are getting re-routed, impeded, chucked, etc. Same with cutters. How much of that do you see go uncalled in the pro game vs. college game? That's why when these guys come to summer league or pre-draft camp there are 60 to 70 fouls in a game. Difference in philosophy? Yes, but if that's not addressed in the pro game then we have a fight. College kids are not getting paid with bonuses for winning a certain amount of games, making it to the playoffs, etc. so they don't worry about it as much I guess.

Personally, I am an aggressive referee and err on the side of blowing the whistle rathering than sucking on plays. Don't get me wrong I have to be sure of what I'm calling. My aggressiveness is why I favor the pro game. They want you to be aggressive, whereas I don't believe college is so much like that.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

officials at the NBA level, once again, don't have the luxury of making their "bad calls" no calls.

Nobody has the "luxury" of making bad calls. But they happen at every level. The NCAA (in general) says, "We'd rather have you miss a marginal call than whistle a bad marginal call." That's not luxury, that's just a difference in opinion from what you say happens at the NBA level (which I've never done, obviously).

College kids are not getting paid with bonuses for winning a certain amount of games, making it to the playoffs, etc. so they don't worry about it as much I guess.

I don't mean to insult you, but you're kidding yourself if you think "big money" is not an issue in the college game. The players aren't getting it (legally, anyway); but coaches and the schools themselves are fighting for their cut of $1 billion every year.

My aggressiveness is why I favor the pro game. They want you to be aggressive, whereas I don't believe college is so much like that.

I don't think it's about being aggressive or not, personally. I think it's about getting plays right.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I don't think it's about being aggressive or not, personally. I think it's about getting plays right.

Let me explain what I mean by that comment:

I'm at a college camp and we are in transition. I am going slot to slot opposite table and the ball is coming down the court just outside the opposite lane line from me. Well the kid gets to the hole and the defender takes a swipe at it and misses and whacks the kid right in the head. Well I wait for a whistle from lead and nothing comes. Well I blow the foul after no response from L (the ball goes in which makes it look like he doesn't get hit). I was 100% that he got hit. Well the clinician comes out and says that both the L and the T didn't see anything so why was I reaching? I was reaching cause I know with no doubt in my mind the kid got hit. I went and asked the kid just after the hoop if he got hit in the head and his exact words were, "Quite hard actually".

My point to that is the clinician was telling me to leave my partners out to dry on a play that I knew was a foul. Essentially he was telling me to let him "live or die with it" which is a philosophy I use in very rare circumstances if at all. I want to do what is right for the game, my crew, and lastly myself and in that order. I believe doing anything else or any other way is doing a disservice.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Well the clinician comes out and says that both the L and the T didn't see anything so why was I reaching?

Ok, here's my clinician story from one of my very first camps.

I'm Lead. Ball swings quickly to the Center and A1 immediately drives to the basket. B1 gets a good piece of A1's arm on the shot. No whistle from the C. Clearly outside my primary, so I let it go. Here's my conversation with the observer:

Him: Whose call was that?
Me: The Center.
Him: Right. Did he have a call?
Me: No.
Him: Right. Did the kid get fouled?
Me: Yes.
Him: Right. What should you have done?
Me: Call the foul?
Him: (Patted me on the shoulder).

So it varies from clinician to clinician. Big surprise, right?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Ok, here's my clinician story from one of my very first camps.

I'm Lead. Ball swings quickly to the Center and A1 immediately drives to the basket. B1 gets a good piece of A1's arm on the shot. No whistle from the C. Clearly outside my primary, so I let it go. Here's my conversation with the observer:

Him: Whose call was that?
Me: The Center.
Him: Right. Did he have a call?
Me: No.
Him: Right. Did the kid get fouled?
Me: Yes.
Him: Right. What should you have done?
Me: Call the foul?
Him: (Patted me on the shoulder).

So it varies from clinician to clinician. Big surprise, right?

No worries.... Dick Bavetta learned the same thing while in the NBA. He wasn't the first and you won't be the last.

[psujaye]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Let me explain what I mean by that comment:

I'm at a college camp and we are in transition. I am going slot to slot opposite table and the ball is coming down the court just outside the opposite lane line from me. Well the kid gets to the hole and the defender takes a swipe at it and misses and whacks the kid right in the head. Well I wait for a whistle from lead and nothing comes. Well I blow the foul after no response from L (the ball goes in which makes it look like he doesn't get hit). I was 100% that he got hit. Well the clinician comes out and says that both the L and the T didn't see anything so why was I reaching? I was reaching cause I know with no doubt in my mind the kid got hit. I went and asked the kid just after the hoop if he got hit in the head and his exact words were, "Quite hard actually".

My point to that is the clinician was telling me to leave my partners out to dry on a play that I knew was a foul. Essentially he was telling me to let him "live or die with it" which is a philosophy I use in very rare circumstances if at all. I want to do what is right for the game, my crew, and lastly myself and in that order. I believe doing anything else or any other way is doing a disservice.

I've been told both things by different observers at camps; i've heard that you can make this call but the cadence of your whistle needs to allow for both the L & T to pick up the call first (i.e. it would be a delayed/late whistle on your part). I've also been told that since it is not the slot's primary and the L and/or T have clear looks, let them call/pass on it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

But this is not the reason for your previous statement. The reason NCAA officials have more bad no-calls is that they're trained that way. If you don't KNOW, don't blow. It's not because they're not held accountable, it's because they taught that their bad calls should be no-calls. When you don't blow the whistle, the game goes on. But when you blow the whistle and you're wrong, the whole game stops, everybody looks at you and you give everybody a chance to chirp at you. You might not agree with that philosophy, but that's what's taught. Of course, they want to get it right every time, but we all know that's impossible. So if you're going to make mistakes, it's better (in the NCAA's thinking) to keep the game moving.

I think you will find that this is changing. I agree that it was often taught to not blow your whistle on flops or many blocked shots to the basket. That is kind of changing at least at the camps I have recently attended. It seems like they want the whistle blown when bodies are hitting the floor. One of the major problems with trying to compare all D1 with the NBA is the fact that there are fewer NBA officials. D1 has probably a little over a 1000 referees that work a D1 game (that number might be high, but work with for a second ). Each conference has a different supervisor for the most part and what one conference might expect is not the same in another conference. Remember many of the newer officials at the NBA level have never worked games equivalent to the NBA before they were hired. I will agree that many of the officials in the NBA are very, very good, but I would suggest that many are not fully ready from a standpoint of just plain experience and making enough mistakes. Even though I did not agree with everything Mathis said about the NBA officials, but some of what he said had merit.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

One of the major problems with trying to compare all D1 with the NBA is the fact that there are fewer NBA officials. D1 has probably a little over a 1000 referees that work a D1 game (that number might be high, but work with for a second ). Each conference has a different supervisor for the most part and what one conference might expect is not the same in another conference.

Agree with that. And to expand on it, the officials within a conference are different also. Different personalities; different ideas on officiating; different tolerance levels, different ideas sometimes on how much contact to allow, etc. Jmo but I don't think that you're ever going to be able to regiment your training/evaluation down to where everything can be called exactly the same. I think that it's more reasonable to ask if any particular game was called fairly and evenly and kept under control while doing so. More often than not, the players/teams decide what kind of game that we're going to have, and we just follow along doing the best that we can.

Again, jmo but I think that NBA officiating is entertainment based, and that's why it's hard to compare the over-all effectiveness of their officiating staff with that of a top NCAA D1 conference. They're two different animals, with different rules and different goals. And that doesn't really make one set of officials markedly better than the other. I do wonder sometimes if the NBA expects too much from their officials.

Jmo, based on my impressions and not that much actual knowledge of the current NBA training/evaluation program......

[Jurassic Referee]

Interesting article this morning citing other NBA referees....

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baske...e-fixing_N.htm

They don't seem to be happy with the current NBA system, which was my impression from afar also. One interesting quote was the one about NBA guidelines directing officials to make calls all over the court.

Here's another one......
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baske...-reviews_N.htm.
Many observers are high school and college referees. Hmmmmmm.....

[gsf23]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Interesting article this morning citing other NBA referees....

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baske...e-fixing_N.htm

They don't seem to be happy with the current NBA system, which was my impression from afar also. One interesting quote was the one about NBA guidelines directing officials to make calls all over the court.

They are all just bitter.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by gsf23

They are all just bitter.

They all can't be bitter, but very few seem to have positive things to say. The idea of calling all over the court is being mis-represented. The NBA, which I agree, has a philosophy that each official has a different angle of the play and that when a foul occurs, the best angle to see the foul could be the off-official (non-prmiary area official) because the play/foul turned right into their clear-line-of-sight vision provided their in proper NBA court position. I saw a WNBA game yesterday, where the C had a great call, where the post player swung away from the lead, and the contact occured in the C's line of vision but out of their NCAA primary coverage area. You may not agree with it, but it's how 3-person officiating should be, imho. It's not perfect, but it's better than not allowing an official that would have had the best angle to see the play to not call it (or even look in that area) because it is out of their primary coverage area.

One arguement that NCAA/HS coaches have is that officials in their leagues can't make a call outside of their PCA area even though they may have saw the violation.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

D1 has probably a little over a 1000 referees that work a D1 game (that number might be high, but work with for a second ).

Your estimate is pretty good. For documented support, Referee Magazine put the figure at approximately 900 for NCAA D1 Womens officials on page 61 of its July 2007 issue.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It seems like they want the whistle blown when bodies are hitting the floor.

Very good point. I was talking in general terms, but you're exactly right about this particular type of play. Lots of observers will say, when bodies get tangled and go down, we have to have a whistle. I don't always agree with that, but that is one play that many people would rather have a marginal whistle than a marginal no-call.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Very good point. I was talking in general terms, but you're exactly right about this particular type of play. Lots of observers will say, when bodies get tangled and go down, we have to have a whistle. I don't always agree with that, but that is one play that many people would rather have a marginal whistle than a marginal no-call.

Had a play where two players are going for an airborne ball. They both jumped in the air to get it and they hit each other, both crashing to the ground. Neither one ended up with the ball and both sides were yelling for a foul.

Coach is in my ear and I said to him, "what did the other player do that was illegal?" Coach shut up after hearing that. Not all train wrecks are fouls, but I think greater than half are.