FBI investigating NBA ref

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Old School

Or how much more I understand the rules then you.

That's right. I'd completely forgotten how "brillant" you are.

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by Old School

Or how much more I understand the rules then you.

Plus, you have a better command of the language than we do.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by boiseball

apparently it was not a must listen; just thought some fellow refs would find it interesting, I figured he must have a chip on his shoulder. I still found myself believing that there is likely some truth to it, particularly his discussion of accountability, how is it that the nba has so many phantom calls, so many calls where you just scratch your head and say, wow that must have been a guess. I do not watch a lot of basketball anymore but my opinion, and it is not something you can prove, is that phantom calls rarely occur in college basketball while they occur regularly in an nba game. And phantom calls are completely different than making calls to benefit superstars (which I hate but may not be the fault of referees if that is what the league preaches).

I found it very refreshing because you don't hear this type of talk too often. Another thing, Mike is retired, so now the NBA can't do too much to him anymore. Unfortunately, the way this business is, officials don't often speak freely for fear of being blackballed. I loved it and listen to every detail. For instance, the officiating has either just maintained or gotten worse. I totally agree and hears the reason why. Spurs vs. Suns series. Let me preference my comment with these two teams where the best men's teams in the NBA/World for this past season, and they where legit. This was a super challenge for any crew of officials. With that being said, the NBA prouds themselves as being the best in the world, in the best shape, bah, bah, bah.... The level of play was very high in this series, yet the officiating appeared to be behind the whole series. They where getting every 3rd incident. They miss calls because they couldn't keep up, not because they where bad, plus the Suns did something the NBA has never seen before. They would shoot the ball in 7 seconds, and that was a team strategy. The Spurs where good enough legitimately to challenge that strategy and they bought it right back at em, great basketball to watch. This is perhaps the best NBA series of all time because of this stragety. The ref's where lost in transition, imho. It confirms what Mike stated in that I don't feel they where ready, mentality or physically to referee at that level. They mixed crews too, but I didn't see much improvement crew to crew.

I will also say this. The crew that worked the Final Four championship game appeared to me to be too slow, just like in the Spurs series. When the officials are struggling to keep up, they start reaching for calls

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Old School

I found it very refreshing because you don't hear this type of talk too often. Another thing, Mike is retired, so now the NBA can't do too much to him anymore. Unfortunately, the way this business is, officials don't often speak freely for fear of being blackballed. I loved it and listen to every detail. For instance, the officiating has either just maintained or gotten worse. I totally agree and hears the reason why. Spurs vs. Suns series. Let me preference my comment with these two teams where the best men's teams in the NBA/World for this past season, and they where legit. This was a super challenge for any crew of officials. With that being said, the NBA prouds themselves as being the best in the world, in the best shape, bah, bah, bah.... The level of play was very high in this series, yet the officiating appeared to be behind the whole series. They where getting every 3rd incident. They miss calls because they couldn't keep up, not because they where bad, plus the Suns did something the NBA has never seen before. They would shoot the ball in 7 seconds, and that was a team strategy. The Spurs where good enough legitimately to challenge that strategy and they bought it right back at em, great basketball to watch. This is perhaps the best NBA series of all time because of this stragety. The ref's where lost in transition, imho. It confirms what Mike stated in that I don't feel they where ready, mentality or physically to referee at that level. They mixed crews too, but I didn't see much improvement crew to crew.

I will also say this. The crew that worked the Final Four championship game appeared to me to be too slow, just like in the Spurs series. When the officials are struggling to keep up, they start reaching for calls

You're kidding me. The best referees in the world can't keep up with the pace? Trust me, they can keep up. The pace was not too fast for them.


BOISEBALL:

Yeah the reason you don't see so many of those "phantom calls" in the college game is because if you don't get KILLED then you don't have a foul. College refs, imo, miss more plays on the side of no calls that should have been blown, whereas NBA refs miss more plays by blowing their whistle on plays that should have been no calls, but then again NBA guys have more accountability and know that if they don't blow the whistle they will be fired, whereas college refs don't get every play charted and i.e., if a team who is up 20+ in a game drives to the hole and gets hit, with no doubt in anyones mind, the ref can pass on it and most will say that it was a good pass because that team is up 20. In the league, you don't have that luxury. If it was an illegal hit then you owe it to the crew and the game to have a foul regardless of score and time.

Check the stats, NBA refs get more plays right than, say, refs in the Big 10. Oh wait you can't check that, the Big 10, along with the rest of Div. 1 conferences don't chart plays. Regardless, I think if they had, NBA refs would have more plays called correct even with Hank Nichols judging what is and what is not a foul.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Old School

Let me preference my comment
they where ready, mentality or physically

There's no question about it - you are brillant!!!

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

the reason you don't see so many of those "phantom calls" in the college game is because if you don't get KILLED then you don't have a foul.

This is completely absurd, and frankly insulting. What was the big complaint from the '07 NCAA championship game? They didn't let Oden play. Boo-hoo-hoo. They actually called fouls against him. And he didn't maim anybody. A couple of those foul calls were light contact but caused an advantage, and they got called.

College refs, imo, miss more plays on the side of no calls that should have been blown, whereas NBA refs miss more plays by blowing their whistle on plays that should have been no calls,

I'll agree with that.

but then again NBA guys have more accountability

But this is not the reason for your previous statement. The reason NCAA officials have more bad no-calls is that they're trained that way. If you don't KNOW, don't blow. It's not because they're not held accountable, it's because they taught that their bad calls should be no-calls. When you don't blow the whistle, the game goes on. But when you blow the whistle and you're wrong, the whole game stops, everybody looks at you and you give everybody a chance to chirp at you. You might not agree with that philosophy, but that's what's taught. Of course, they want to get it right every time, but we all know that's impossible. So if you're going to make mistakes, it's better (in the NCAA's thinking) to keep the game moving.

if a team who is up 20+ in a game drives to the hole and gets hit, with no doubt in anyones mind, the ref can pass on it and most will say that it was a good pass because that team is up 20.

I think you will find that with everything being taped and passed along to assignors, that way of thinking is changing. "The subs deserve the same officiating as the starters got".

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Yeah the reason you don't see so many of those "phantom calls" in the college game is because if you don't get KILLED then you don't have a foul. College refs, imo, miss more plays on the side of no calls that should have been blown, whereas NBA refs miss more plays by blowing their whistle on plays that should have been no calls, but then again NBA guys have more accountability and know that if they don't blow the whistle they will be fired, whereas college refs don't get every play charted and i.e., if a team who is up 20+ in a game drives to the hole and gets hit, with no doubt in anyones mind, the ref can pass on it and most will say that it was a good pass because that team is up 20. In the league, you don't have that luxury. If it was an illegal hit then you owe it to the crew and the game to have a foul regardless of score and time.

That is not entirely true. I agree that the NBA officials are scrutinized more than anyone, but to say someone the Big 10 does not have to get a play right in a 20+ margin game is a little disingenuous. The NBA can find out if they have a call wrong during halftime. Do not think for a second with millions of dollars on the line the officials in the Big 10 and even the smaller conferences are not scrutinizing their officials heavily. Most of the time we never hear about it official screw-ups or know if any action was taken by a conference. All a coach has to do is complain about a single call and the play is reviewed. I would say that a game at the D1 level just does not have the immediate feedback as the NBA, but they will hear about situations if they screw them up.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Check the stats, NBA refs get more plays right than, say, refs in the Big 10. Oh wait you can't check that, the Big 10, along with the rest of Div. 1 conferences don't chart plays. Regardless, I think if they had, NBA refs would have more plays called correct even with Hank Nichols judging what is and what is not a foul.

I do not know that I would go that far either. Let us remember that many of the NBA officials are not that experienced over all. Many NBA officials have been officiating less than 10 years of experience before they do their first game in the league. I agree many are very good, but many are not as good as many of the top D1 guys. So depending on whom you talk to, that opinion might not be widely held. Also understand the philosophies between D1 and the NBA is also very different. We really cannot judge officials from different levels on the very same merits.

Peace

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Old School

I loved it and listen to every detail.

Why am I not surprised??

[Jurassic Referee]

What I find amazing is that you got one clown who's never done anything except some low level rec league ball in his life, and another young official that's never done a high school varsity game in his life either afaik, yet they're both pontificating mightily about the competency of the top NCAA and NBA officials. What's wrong with this picture?

Lah me.....

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

But this is not the reason for your previous statement. The reason NCAA officials have more bad no-calls is that they're trained that way. If you don't KNOW, don't blow. It's not because they're not held accountable, it's because they taught that their bad calls should be no-calls. When you don't blow the whistle, the game goes on. But when you blow the whistle and you're wrong, the whole game stops, everybody looks at you and you give everybody a chance to chirp at you. You might not agree with that philosophy, but that's what's taught. Of course, they want to get it right every time, but we all know that's impossible. So if you're going to make mistakes, it's better (in the NCAA's thinking) to keep the game moving.

I understand what you are saying, but officials at the NBA level, once again, don't have the luxury of making their "bad calls" no calls. They also have to be certain of their plays as well. IMO, what is considered marginal contact in college is way different than what is marginal contact in the NBA. IMO, perimeter play is way too "handsy" in the college games. Guys are getting re-routed, impeded, chucked, etc. Same with cutters. How much of that do you see go uncalled in the pro game vs. college game? That's why when these guys come to summer league or pre-draft camp there are 60 to 70 fouls in a game. Difference in philosophy? Yes, but if that's not addressed in the pro game then we have a fight. College kids are not getting paid with bonuses for winning a certain amount of games, making it to the playoffs, etc. so they don't worry about it as much I guess.

Personally, I am an aggressive referee and err on the side of blowing the whistle rathering than sucking on plays. Don't get me wrong I have to be sure of what I'm calling. My aggressiveness is why I favor the pro game. They want you to be aggressive, whereas I don't believe college is so much like that.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

and another young official that's never done a high school varsity game in his life either afaik

Lah me.....

Where do you get that information from? I've done HS varsity and more. I don't have to explain myself to you though. I am sorry I haven't been alive half as long as the amount of years you have been in the profession. You are an assignor, right. Maybe you are like the supervisors in the NBA that this Mike Mathis guy has been talking about. Maybe you just couldn't hack it so you got into the only other thing basketball officiating could provide you...supervising. It hurts doesn't it? So why do that to others? I don't do it to be mean, I do it to illustrate a point. You are a grumpy old man. why must we talk about this? Why do you even bring up experience? If you don't like what any of us have to say, then just say so. You don't have to attack anyone's experience level.

BTW, if you want to know what I work just ask Chuck Elias. We recently met. He seems like a great guy and I wish I could have sat and talked with him more.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Where do you get that information from? I've done HS varsity and more. I don't have to explain myself to you though. I am sorry I haven't been alive half as long as the amount of years you have been in the profession. You are an assignor, right. Maybe you are like the supervisors in the NBA that this Mike Mathis guy has been talking about. Maybe you just couldn't hack it so you got into the only other thing basketball officiating could provide you...supervising. It hurts doesn't it? So why do that to others? I don't do it to be mean, I do it to illustrate a point. You are a grumpy old man. why must we talk about this? Why do you even bring up experience? If you don't like what any of us have to say, then just say so. You don't have to attack anyone's experience level.

BTW, if you want to know what I work just ask Chuck Elias. We recently met. He seems like a great guy and I wish I could have sat and talked with him more.

I know more about you than you know, Ben, believe me. It's a joke when somebody with your experience and rules knowledge starts to critique officials at the D1 and NBA levels.

At the start of the season that just ended, you admitted that you've never done a high school game in your life at any level- Frosh, JV, whatever. And I hate to break it to you, but doing a low level D3 or JC game because no one else is available in the afternoon is not the same as doing D1 ball .
http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...877#post334877
Now all of a sudden you've done HS varsity and more. What is "more"? D1? NBA? Maybe you should build up a little spit in your whistle before you start expounding at how good or bad officials are at levels that you can only dream of attaining. Hell, it's probably a good idea if you learn a few basics rules first- like maybe that you can't call a "T" on a player who has rattled the board while making a legitimate attempt at a block.
http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...891#post358891

If you want to "illustrate points", maybe you should actually learn those points first. Don't let that stop you, and Old School, from telling us what's wrong with D1 and NBA officials though.

Here's a little advice for you. You can learn a lot more listening than talking. Feel free to ignore that though because whatthehell does a grumpy old man know anyway.

[JRutledge]

The one thing we can count on is when JR dresses someone down. Not only did he make a comment about a certain person’s comments, he showed the darn posts that the comments were made. I am scared of you JR. Damn that was good. It kind of puts all the comments into a different light. I was not even paying attention that closely. I guess I need to read more posts on this board.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

But this is not the reason for your previous statement. The reason NCAA officials have more bad no-calls is that they're trained that way. If you don't KNOW, don't blow. It's not because they're not held accountable, it's because they taught that their bad calls should be no-calls. When you don't blow the whistle, the game goes on. But when you blow the whistle and you're wrong, the whole game stops, everybody looks at you and you give everybody a chance to chirp at you. You might not agree with that philosophy, but that's what's taught. Of course, they want to get it right every time, but we all know that's impossible. So if you're going to make mistakes, it's better (in the NCAA's thinking) to keep the game moving.

I think you will find that this is changing. I agree that it was often taught to not blow your whistle on flops or many blocked shots to the basket. That is kind of changing at least at the camps I have recently attended. It seems like they want the whistle blown when bodies are hitting the floor. One of the major problems with trying to compare all D1 with the NBA is the fact that there are fewer NBA officials. D1 has probably a little over a 1000 referees that work a D1 game (that number might be high, but work with for a second ). Each conference has a different supervisor for the most part and what one conference might expect is not the same in another conference. Remember many of the newer officials at the NBA level have never worked games equivalent to the NBA before they were hired. I will agree that many of the officials in the NBA are very, very good, but I would suggest that many are not fully ready from a standpoint of just plain experience and making enough mistakes. Even though I did not agree with everything Mathis said about the NBA officials, but some of what he said had merit.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Hell, it's probably a good idea if you learn a few basics rules first- like maybe that you can't call a "T" on a player who has rattled the board while making a legitimate attempt at a block.
http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...891#post358891

I had this come up in a game this past weekend. The coach was upset because his player took a running six-footer and the opponent took a big swipe trying to block the shot, but missed the ball and smacked the backboard. The ball hit the board, the ring, and then bounced off.

The coach first complained to my partner who was the Trail on the play, and then later asked me during a FT if the rule on hitting the backboard had changed. I told him that it had not and that as long as the player makes a legitimate attempt to block the shot that there is nothing wrong with the play. He replied that they don't call it that way in California.