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Old Thu Jul 19, 2007, 03:27pm
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Crashes

How would you call these:
1) A1 attempting throw-in in front court. Throws deep, offline, causing A5 to run to attempt a catch and in the process B5 and A5 colide, while A5 is attempting the catch. Is there a foul on B5 or is it judgement based on each players position at point of catch / crash (ie: no call and play on)? Could there be a foul on A5? Does the defense have the greater responsibility for contact?

2) During rebound, ball is tapped into deep frontcourt and A1 & B1 colide hard while attempting to retrieve it. Is there ever a call in this situation?
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Old Thu Jul 19, 2007, 03:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splute
How would you call these:
1) A1 attempting throw-in in front court. Throws deep, offline, causing A5 to run to attempt a catch and in the process B5 and A5 colide, while A5 is attempting the catch. Is there a foul on B5 or is it judgement based on each players position at point of catch / crash (ie: no call and play on)? Could there be a foul on A5? Does the defense have the greater responsibility for contact?

2) During rebound, ball is tapped into deep frontcourt and A1 & B1 colide hard while attempting to retrieve it. Is there ever a call in this situation?
1)It's dependent upon where the players are positioned. If they are side by side and have an equal chance I have nothing. If A5 is closest to the ball with B5 trailing and they get tripped up then I have a foul on B5 for a trip, because in my judgement A5 was about to get the ball and if I don't have anything then B gets the ball.

2) Once again just depends on the positioning of the players. Follow the same principles as above.
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Old Thu Jul 19, 2007, 03:35pm
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Sounds like plays one would actually have to see live in order to make the correct decision.
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Old Thu Jul 19, 2007, 03:36pm
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That's why we get paid the big bucks.

2 players in equally favorable positions is the key to your questions.

If both have the same chance of getting the ball and the contact is not something with the hands or arms restricting movement, you typically have incidental contact...sometimes a big splat with nothing to call too.
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Old Thu Jul 19, 2007, 03:40pm
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You cannot tell anything about either of these plays based on the descriptions. Only thing I will say is do not penalize the defense (like suggested in #1) if the player did nothing wrong.

The bottom line the defense and offense have the same right to their positions on the floor as long as they got there first. All plays with contact do not involve a foul call.

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Old Thu Jul 19, 2007, 03:49pm
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Thanks gentlemen.... great answers with great insights. I am writing these notes in my book to refer to. It seems the consensus is "equally favorable positions" is the key to look for on these plays. I have fought with this one, this really helps.
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Old Thu Jul 19, 2007, 04:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splute
Thanks gentlemen.... great answers with great insights. I am writing these notes in my book to refer to. It seems the consensus is "equally favorable positions" is the key to look for on these plays. I have fought with this one, this really helps.
Otherwise known as NFHS rule 4-27-2......

R4-27-3&5 are helpful too.
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Old Thu Jul 19, 2007, 04:29pm
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I am a no nothing rookie, but here is my perspective.

A. The foul is on the defense unless he jumps vertically or has an obvious advantage.

B. No call.
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Old Thu Jul 19, 2007, 04:47pm
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JR I always appreciate your rules references. I shall read it again with these insights in mind.

I also want to understand why there are, imo, so few calls on the defense while "trapping" the offensive player usually during presses (in the games I have watched officiated since getting involved). Its seems many pushing calls and hack calls are passed on. Is this game management or simply viewed as no adv/disadv? I realize this is a general comment and difficult to respond to without seeing an actual play, but in general through your experiences and those you have witnessed.....
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Old Thu Jul 19, 2007, 05:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splute
JR I always appreciate your rules references. I shall read it again with these insights in mind.

I also want to understand why there are, imo, so few calls on the defense while "trapping" the offensive player usually during presses (in the games I have watched officiated since getting involved). Its seems many pushing calls and hack calls are passed on. Is this game management or simply viewed as no adv/disadv? I realize this is a general comment and difficult to respond to without seeing an actual play, but in general through your experiences and those you have witnessed.....
First off, not all contact is a foul. It is that simple. If a player is being trapped, the defense is allowed to hold their position. Also no veteran official that knows the game is going to bail out an offensive player that is being trapped. If they do not want to be trapped, they should not have dribbled or passed into such a position. Also the offense does not have the right to move out defensive players that have established their position either. So the offense cannot throw elbows to create space or lower their shoulder which happens as well.

Every player is allowed to their position on the floor. So if the defense legally attained their position, they are allowed to keep it. And in a trap there is always going to be some kind of contact. The issue is always is the contact legal or illegal.

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Old Thu Jul 19, 2007, 05:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splute
I also want to understand why there are, imo, so few calls on the defense while "trapping" the offensive player usually during presses (in the games I have watched officiated since getting involved). Its seems many pushing calls and hack calls are passed on. Is this game management or simply viewed as no adv/disadv? I realize this is a general comment and difficult to respond to without seeing an actual play, but in general through your experiences and those you have witnessed.....
Because it is a general comment, it is difficult to respond to without seeing the actual play.

In general, through my experiences and those that I have witnessed.....generally.....what Rut said.
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Old Thu Jul 19, 2007, 06:04pm
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aahhh very well explained JRut. I must be watching from a Fanboy perspective still, heavy sigh. Obviously I need more reps to see these plays thru. Your explanation covers all the angles and makes perfect sense to me. It definetly helps to have these explained by those who call or do not call them and why.

Jurassic.... ha, ha ha... too funny
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Old Thu Jul 19, 2007, 10:35pm
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Regarding the OP, remember that in hs ball, there is no team control on the throw in, so technically, there's no defense or offense. This is especially important if you do call a foul, since it can't possibly be a PC or TC if the foul was committed before the ball is controlled.

But it also means that regular block/charge criteria don't apply. It might be that you'd even have to suspend your normal guarding/screening types of thinking. It becomes strictly a matter of whether one player illegally takes away an advantage from the other.
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Old Fri Jul 20, 2007, 12:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splute
aahhh very well explained JRut. I must be watching from a Fanboy perspective still, heavy sigh. Obviously I need more reps to see these plays thru. Your explanation covers all the angles and makes perfect sense to me. It definetly helps to have these explained by those who call or do not call them and why.

I agree with your first comment about the number of no-calls. It's ridiculous. Just because a player unwisely gets trapped doesn't mean that he deserves to get fouled without a call. Defenders are allowed to keep their position, but you never see two defenders just standing there with their arms in the air. They are constantly slapping at the ball and rarely hitting it, instead beating on the offensive player's arms.

To answer your initial question, it isn't called because coaches don't complain about it enough. Watch, though, when a coach complains about it a couple times. I guarantee that you'll see a whistle shortly after. Sad but true. I've seen it happen from the stands and on the court.

Again, I'm just a rookie so what do I know.
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Old Fri Jul 20, 2007, 12:33pm
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Originally Posted by lrpalmer3
I am a no nothing rookie, but here is my perspective.

A. The foul is on the defense unless he jumps vertically or has an obvious advantage.

B. No call.
A. Why? Neither player has the ball, so neither is granted any special protection or responsibility. Both players have an equal legal chance at the ball, so don't penalize the defense for not doing what he's not required to do (jump vertically.)
Besides, technically, there is no "offense" or "defense" during a throwin until a player secures control inbounds.

B. In the OP, the question was, "is there ever a call in this situation?" The answer is yes, there can be a call. If A1 jumps on top of B1, it's probably a foul. Look for illegal advantage. If they're both heading full boar for the ball and collide, it's likely a no-call. But that's not always how it goes down. Look for shoulder nudges, tripping, etc. on these plays.
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