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Old Thu Jan 13, 2000, 06:21pm
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A coach and I were debating inbounds rules today and came up with 3 questions.

1. If an inbounder is holding the ball over the endline, but standing out of bounds, is it a game delay or possibly a technical on the defender should they touch the ball?

2. Should the inbounder pass the ball to a teammate who is also out of bounds, can the inbounder bounce pass it?

3. Would the 5 second count begin over if the inbounder passed the ball to a teammate also out of bounds?

Thanks in advance - it will provide us press break ideas.

Savage
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Old Thu Jan 13, 2000, 06:55pm
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The answers are:

1. No. See Case Book p. 51, 7.6.3A and 7.6.3F. There is no violation since it is a live ball and the defensive restrictions on a throw in deal only with penetrating the throw-in boundary plane.

2. Yes, a bounce pass can be thrown to a teammate who is legally out of bounds along the same sideline during a throw-in, assuming you are referring in this instance to a throw in after a field goal which is NOT a designated-spot throw in. (On a designated-spot throw in, no teammate can be out of bounds--a technical foul--and the thrower-in is to throw the ball directly onto the court. The restriction on a teammate of the thrower being out of bounds after a throw in begin applies only to a designated-spot throw in; rule 9-2-12.) There is no restriction on the kind of pass (bounce or all air?) that takes place.

3. No, the 5-second count does not start over if the ball is passed to another thrower. A team has 4.9999 seconds from the time the throw in starts (when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to it; 4-41-3) to release the passed ball so that it goes directly into the court (4-41-4). If they want 1 or more players to take part in consuming that 4.9999 seconds and they can do so legally, so be it. When the count hits 5 seconds, it is a violation.
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Old Thu Jan 13, 2000, 08:08pm
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Good Job Rusty on your answers:

Here is some more thoughts on the 3 questions;

1. Player B1 can have a held ball with player A1 who is throwing the ball in.

2. A "inbounder" or player throwing the ball in can not bounce pass onto the court if the ball hits out of bounds first. This is a throw in violation.

3. The 5 second count stops when the throw in player releases the ball.

Dan
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Old Fri Jan 14, 2000, 11:58am
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I also agree that Rusty's answers are great! One clarification, however. Answer 2. Rusty you state that it is a technical foul for a teammate of the thrower to be out of bounds on a desinated spot throw-in undre 9-2-12. Under 9-2-12, isn't this a violation? I'm just being picky because I know under 10-3-4 no player can leave the floor for an unauthorized reason (penalty is technical foul) so you can call it that way because of the provisions of 9-2-12 undre 10-3-4.
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Old Fri Jan 14, 2000, 12:18pm
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Dan, good additional thoughts and clarifications. Thanks.

Walt, you are exactly right. As a matter of fact, I had that call on Tuesday night. A designated spot throw in, but the throwing team ran a play that included another player jumping out of bounds, receiving a bounce pass from the thrower, and then attempting to throw the ball in bounds. When the original thrower threw to the second player out of bounds, I whistled and called it a violation. It seemed kinder at the moment and, to be honest, assessing a technical didn't cross my mind at the time. Thanks, Walt, for the dose of practical officiating.
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Old Tue Feb 01, 2000, 10:36pm
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quote:
Originally posted by walt on 01-14-2000 10:58 AM
I also agree that Rusty's answers are great! One clarification, however. Answer 2. Rusty you state that it is a technical foul for a teammate of the thrower to be out of bounds on a desinated spot throw-in undre 9-2-12. Under 9-2-12, isn't this a violation? I'm just being picky because I know under 10-3-4 no player can leave the floor for an unauthorized reason (penalty is technical foul) so you can call it that way because of the provisions of 9-2-12 undre 10-3-4.


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Old Tue Feb 01, 2000, 10:45pm
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Please clarify for me. I believe it is a technical foul for the defender to touch or grab or hit the ball while in the possession of the opponent player inbounding the ball, whether it is across the plane or not. You can warn them to stay behind the plane if they are simply aggressively jumping across the plane but it is a "T" if they touch ball.

The held ball concept if very foreign to me. I assume you mean that the offensive player reached across the plane with the ball and the defender grabbed for a held ball. If you mean behind the plane, this would open up a whole new strategy that would be impossible to enforce.


Additionaly, it is a technical foul on inbounder should he intentionally touch or strike the defender with the ball for any reason. For example, the inbounder while holding the ball to inbounds, reaches out and hits the opponent on the top of his head to either attempt to move him back or just to be ornery to the opponent. Right or wrong??
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Old Wed Feb 02, 2000, 12:09am
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Please clarify for me. I believe it is a technical foul for the defender to touch or grab or hit the ball while in the possession of the opponent player inbounding the ball, whether it is across the plane or not.

As Rusty said, "See Case Book p. 51, 7.6.3A and 7.6.3F. There is no violation since it is a live ball and the defensive restrictions on a throw in deal only with penetrating the throw-in boundary plane"

The held ball concept if very foreign to me. I assume you mean that the offensive player reached across the plane with the ball and the defender grabbed for a held ball. If you mean behind the plane, this would open up a whole new strategy that would be impossible to enforce.

Not really since usually the thrower-in doesn't reach across the plane when throwing the ball in. Also, if he does reach across and it gets stolen, he'll know damn well not to offer the ball like that in the future.

To date, i've never had the defender legally touch the ball while in the hands of the inbounder.

Additionaly, it is a technical foul on inbounder should he intentionally touch or strike the defender with the ball for any reason. For example, the inbounder while holding the ball to inbounds, reaches out and hits the opponent on the top of his head to either attempt to move him back or just to be ornery to the opponent. Right or wrong??

Well obviously the inbounder can't just bop the defender over the head while holding the ball. Nor can he throw the ball at the defender with undue force or in an attempt to hurt him.

But what if the inbounder gave a shove to the body with the ball? I've never thought about it, but can a player commit a personal foul using the ball as the sole point of contact?

I would tend to say no, since while the hand is part of the ball (4-24-2), i don't think that one could say that the ball is part of the hand to call an illegal use of hands foul. Of course, usually this isn't an issue since the defender simply take the ball away. On a throw-in, many defenders wouldn't realize that once the ball crosses the boundary its fair game.

Thus, if the shoving was hard or unsportsmanlike, i'd call the T. Otherwise just play on. Anyone else wanna stab at this?
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Old Wed Feb 02, 2000, 01:33am
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Yes, just the other night I had two teams which were clearly outmatched since one school was in its first year of organized basketball.

The center was 6'7" and skinny as a rail. An offensive player turned to make a move with the ball in both hands, hit the skinny one in the chest and drove him out of bounds. He then shot the ball and scored a basketb.

I said play on and told the coach that the contact was inadvertant and that he needed to put the player on a weight gaining diet. He laughed and said that was his intention at the end of the season.
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Old Wed Feb 02, 2000, 10:05am
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Inadvertent in that situation, yes. But, if the offensive player in my judgment PURPOSELY pushes or strikes the opponent using the ball with some degree of force, I believe that can and should be called a player control foul. The rules do not allow nor intend for the player to gain such an advantage, whether he pushed with his hands or using the ball. Illegal contact in either case. Of course, you better be darn certain it was a deliberate act. If it at all looks like a "move" with the ball and could be construed as inadvertent, then best to pass on it.
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Old Wed Feb 02, 2000, 03:14pm
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quote:
Originally posted by divey on 01-13-2000 07:08 PM
3. The 5 second count stops when the throw in player releases the ball.

Dan


Nitpicky point 1: The 5 second count stops when the inbounder releases the ball TOWARD THE COURT.

Nitpicky point 2: The inbounding team may have more than 1 player OOB on any throwin following a "made or awarded score", not just after a made field goal.

(Hey - I told you they were nitpicky!)

BTW - I called a violation last night when the inbounder handed the ball to a teammate instead of throwing it in. Haven't had that in years.

also BTW - notice I use the term "inbounder", not "thrower-in" like the NF rule book. Every time I hear "thrower-in" I want to "thrower-up."

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