Would you "T"

[refprof]

Unsportsmanlike behavior is unacceptable. This happened to me once, and I have always regreted not awarding a "T"
A wise old man once instructed me, "Victory without honor is no victory." His name was Hashim Kahn.

[deecee]

player takes a shot and misses and at the top of his lungs yells "F__k"

clearly its not aimed at the official, and I will be hard pressed to find anyone here that would not T this up.

so why when the coach is dropping bombs that poor 90 year old Mary who came to watch her great grandson play ball and is hard of hearing can hear him would you not want to punish him. Besides from personal experience a coach who acts like this wont treat you with much respect either.

JRut -- the T will accomplish one thing, and it only really needs to accomplish one thing, and that is let the coach know that behavior is unacceptable in your game. Wheter he does it again is out of your control.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by deecee

JRut -- the T will accomplish one thing, and it only really needs to accomplish one thing, and that is let the coach know that behavior is unacceptable in your game. Wheter he does it again is out of your control.

Here the problem I have with your position. The OP did not use any particular word or words as an example. Profanity is very often subjective. There are certain words that would be considered profane in one circle and in others would be considered acceptable. Now if the NF wants to pick out certain words then I will have a bigger leg to stand on. But let us not act like we penalize every bad word we hear. I very rarely ever worked a game where an official other than me penalized a kid or coach the very first time they heard a profane word. I would do like I usually do give them a chance to know what is acceptable then give a T if necessary. To me going in a huddle to give a T based on what is said within a team huddle is looking for trouble. You can quote all the NF positions and say why we should follow the NF interpretation as you read it, but I do not work for the NF. I work for the assignors that give me games. I am not going to go into a he said, he said type of situation to enforce a rule that is vague at best.

Just like always I am telling you what I am going to do. What you do is up to you. I just have almost never heard clearly anything said in a team huddle if I am standing on the block or talking with my partners.

Peace

[Philz]

I' don't remeber word for word what he said but it went something like this. You guys are playing like sh*t....If you dont feel like playing pack your sh*t and take your asses home. He went on for a while longer mostly using the "sh" word but no "F" bombs for sure. This guy was big with a big voice to go with it and as I mentioned was sooooooooooo loud you had to be 100% deaf not to hear it in the gym.
Someone mentioned I was another guy affaid to give a "T" but let me tell you I gave a "T" to that guy later that I'm proud of. I was trail and there was some contact down below with his team in possesion. No call and the other team taking over on a fast break the other way. He chased me down the floor yelling at me with that big loud voice "you blew the call" "you blew the call" I held my whistel until the other team finished the fast break in which they made a layup and I got a foul on his team also and I really enjoyed calling the foul, bucket good and then a Tech. on the coach. Coach saids, Oh now you call the Tech? yeah coach, had to let the play finish first. So I dont like hearing that BS another one affaid to call a "T". It was a situation that doesnt happen that often as I can see from the replies only one said it happen to him so before you start point fingers at whos affaid to call a "T" try to put yourself in the situation before you reply with that type of comment. I like to hear what other officials (with a lot more experience) have to say and learn from it. Thats why I like this forum.

[JRutledge]

I also love how people want to point out rule 10-4-1c or 10-3-7b but forget to worry about 10-4-1b, which happens about every time we make a call or we have a situation that a coach does not like. But we must at all costs T up every coach if we hear profanity in a huddle which we are not being addressed or talked to. Well, in this day and age if a coach is using profanity, they tend to tell on the coach. They tend to get coaches in trouble for behavior that is not easily heard by anyone.

There was a coach in my area that put on a bulletin board in the locker room a sign that said, "Hard work will set you free." Now to the average person this might not in any way be offensive, but the school this took place was a largely Jewish community. I guess the Nazis put signs up like this in the concentration camps in the 30s and 40s and this has a very offensive reaction from those in the Jewish community. As an African-American I have no idea this was something seen as a problem, but the coach was suspended for a game and was put in some other kind of trouble with the school he worked for. Remember, the rule we are discussing also talks about inappropriate language and this from my background would not even raise an eyebrow because I had no knowledge of the context of such comments. So how far are we going to take what we hear in the huddle? I agree that is should be addressed, but giving a T for a first time offense is a stretch in my mind.

Peace

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

To me going in a huddle to give a T based on what is said within a team huddle is looking for trouble.
Peace

I'll agree to that. However, if I can hear it, it's not in the huddle anymore.

[Boiler14]

Other than the OP, no one else has mentioned if this has happened to them during a game. It hasn't happened to me. One may think they may react in a situation like this but until the time comes no one really knows.

Example: Team A up by 10 with about two minutes left in the game. They lose the big lead on a press by Team B and now there is 10 seconds left in the game. Game is tied (or within a point or two either way) and Team A's coach calls TO and goes off in one of the tirades described in this thread toward his team.

If you really are going to call it when a team is down 20 you better call it now. It is possible that some of you may very well do so (and, yes, I know what the rules say)...but I would believe you are a minority.

I agree there is no room in the game for it. I'm a varsity coach in a different sport and it isn't tolerated from me or my players. However, a coach may very well be using that language in the huddle in a nine inch voice where you can't hear it and that is just as bad.

Anyway, if anyone has called it, please speak up and tell us how things transpired afterwards.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Boiler14

Other than the OP, no one else has mentioned if this has happened to them during a game. It hasn't happened to me. One may think they may react in a situation like this but until the time comes no one really knows.

Example: Team A up by 10 with about two minutes left in the game. They lose the big lead on a press by Team B and now there is 10 seconds left in the game. Game is tied (or within a point or two either way) and Team A's coach calls TO and goes off in one of the tirades described in this thread toward his team.

If you really are going to call it when a team is down 20 you better call it now. It is possible that some of you may very well do so (and, yes, I know what the rules say)...but I would believe you are a minority.

I agree there is no room in the game for it. I'm a varsity coach in a different sport and it isn't tolerated from me or my players. However, a coach may very well be using that language in the huddle in a nine inch voice where you can't hear it and that is just as bad.

Anyway, if anyone has called it, please speak up and tell us how things transpired afterwards.

An unsporting act is an unsporting act -- cursing for the world to hear it is such -- the game situation has no bearing on the validity or lack of sportsmanship being shown.

If no one can hear it then we dont have a problem.

the deal is not how the coach deals with his players -- thats the players and parents problem -- its the image and the respect of the actual game that is on the line. You have families in the stands that, I am sure, did not go to watch this game to be subjected to questionable language. Profanity IS questionable. If I am the only one that hears this and I am a fair distance away I will not T up the coach, but I will mention to him to be aware of where he is and to act with some professionalism.

I have had an almost similar situation where a coach was just a fiery person and was berating his team like I have never seen before. The whole gym could hear him. It was varsity type level girls AAU and the teams in this tournament are all big and talented. This coach I did not recognize as I have worked this tourney for several years. The fans were in shock and so was I. However he didnt really curse -- but he was very negative to his players. Once the timeout was over I made my way to him and just reminded him that sound carries and for him to be aware of what came out of his mouth.

If he had another tirade like that I would not have T'd him up as he didnt use any profanity -- however had he -- I might have been inclined to run him for a flagrant as I can only imagine what string of words he might have put together. however he toned down after that and there was no issue.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Boiler14

Other than the OP, no one else has mentioned if this has happened to them during a game. It hasn't happened to me. One may think they may react in a situation like this but until the time comes no one really knows.

Example: Team A up by 10 with about two minutes left in the game. They lose the big lead on a press by Team B and now there is 10 seconds left in the game. Game is tied (or within a point or two either way) and Team A's coach calls TO and goes off in one of the tirades described in this thread toward his team.

If you really are going to call it when a team is down 20 you better call it now. It is possible that some of you may very well do so (and, yes, I know what the rules say)...but I would believe you are a minority.

I agree there is no room in the game for it. I'm a varsity coach in a different sport and it isn't tolerated from me or my players. However, a coach may very well be using that language in the huddle in a nine inch voice where you can't hear it and that is just as bad.

Anyway, if anyone has called it, please speak up and tell us how things transpired afterwards.

Had it happen and didn't know what to do. I will be honest. I walked over to talk to partners to try and pretend I didn't hear it.

What I did was I went and talked to the coach after the timeout and explained to him that this was unacceptable. If he did it again it would be a Technical. He understood and appreciated me letting him know it was wrong. If you just blast the coach while he's already irrate and talking to his players, you might need security afterwards. I would suggest giving the coach a warning and letting him know you can hear him before enforcing the T and potentially taking the game from him. In a crowded gym with a lot of fans you can't hear it and it's not a problem, but when there's only a few fans, you can hear everything. Including the fans who can be far worst and direct there insults right at you.

AAU address this as unacceptable in there rules long time ago.

[refnrev]

I'd have T'd him up. His behavior deserved it so he bought it. We'd whack a player for this in a heartbeat so why not the coach? Isn't he supposed to be setting an example... a better one than he was?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by refnrev

I'd have T'd him up. His behavior deserved it so he bought it. We'd whack a player for this in a heartbeat so why not the coach? Isn't he supposed to be setting an example... a better one than he was?

So you whack a player anytime they use a curse word under their breathe or not directed at anyone no matter what the situation or the loudness? What about if a player dislocates their knee (this actually happen in a game last year)? Now I would bet you do not do that every single time it happens.

I agree the coach is setting an example, but it is not my job to put my foot down on all behavior a coach displays. We are only seeing these coaches and players for a very short period of time. The parents and the administration see a lot more of what goes on than I do.

Peace

[refnrev]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

So you whack a player anytime they use a curse word under their breathe or not directed at anyone no matter what the situation or the loudness? What about if a player dislocates their knee (this actually happen in a game last year)? Now I would bet you do not do that every single time it happens.

I agree the coach is setting an example, but it is not my job to put my foot down on all behavior a coach displays. We are only seeing these coaches and players for a very short period of time. The parents and the administration see a lot more of what goes on than I do.

Peace

____________________________________

1. We're not talking about a player cussing under his breath or when he dislocates his knee. We're talking about a coach who is on a tirade who is using inapproriate language loud enough to be heard all over the gymn and in the lobby.

2. Agreed, we don't put our foot down on all behavior a coach displays... but we are supposed to put our foot down on improper behavior. That's part of what we are getting paid to do and to ignore such an obvious tirade makes us look unwilling to address difficult situations and unprofessional.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by refnrev

____________________________________

1. We're not talking about a player cussing under his breath or when he dislocates his knee. We're talking about a coach who is on a tirade who is using inapproriate language loud enough to be heard all over the gymn and in the lobby.

2. Agreed, we don't put our foot down on all behavior a coach displays... but we are supposed to put our foot down on improper behavior. That's part of what we are getting paid to do and to ignore such an obvious tirade makes us look unwilling to address difficult situations and unprofessional.

The rules do not put all these caveats on how the rule should be applied. Even in your defense of your position you are qualifying your position. May only point is to say that even if no one hears it but you, then you have to penalize based on how you take this position.

I am not saying I am right, but if we are really worried about an example we are setting, why does it matter who else hears the words? What if you are standing right next to the huddle let us say after the first horn is blown and you hear the coach use two or three choice words and you are the only person outside of the huddle that hears it? I would think most (not necessarily you) would pass and at the most say something to the coach.

Ultimately we put all kinds of caveats on when and how we apply rules like this. Really that is the point that I want to make.

Peace

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

...but it is not my job to put my foot down on all behavior a coach displays....

You are correct. Your job is only to put your foot down on unacceptable behavior a coach displays. Surely you're not suggesting you'd give a coach a pass on unacceptable behavior just because you're only going to be there for 90 minutes?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

You are correct. Your job is only to put your foot down on unacceptable behavior a coach displays. Surely you're not suggesting you'd give a coach a pass on unacceptable behavior just because you're only going to be there for 90 minutes?

First of all you are taking those comments out of context. All unacceptable behavior by a coach is not going to be in your view. Coaches have contact with players in the locker room, on the bus, even in the huddle where you will not know what is going on. Those are the things schools need to deal with. I live in a community that is so conservative if a coach even used a word that was not a curse word, the kids would tell on them.

I just thing this is like the political question that everyone agrees with like, "Do you support funding for children's education?" Then when you get behind closed doors or you start talking about the details, then the opinions change drastically. If the rule is the rule, then it should not matter how loud the comments are. But my point is that we do put all those qualifiers on this and many issues. There were even people that said, "But if it is heard all over the gym....."

Peace