Free Throws with 0.00 showing on the clock...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

JR, with the removal of the lag-time restriction on fixing timing errors, you absolutely can put time back on the clock and count the bucket. The caveat is simple, you must have definite knowledge of how much time to put back on.

What timing error?

In this play, the timer stopped the clock properly as soon as he recognized the foul call. While stopping the clock, time ran out and the horn ended the period. There's no timing error to correct.

If you blow your whistle for a second, do you think that you should put a second back on the clock to account for the time between the beginning and end of your whistle blow? Don't think so. It's not practical.

You fix errors. This isn't an error.

[Adam]

Then why bother removing "lag time?"

[Mark Dexter]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

One of your better contributions.....

[Adam]

Your way is easier. I'm fine with that.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Then why bother removing "lag time?"

They're taking the guesswork out of clock adjustment when the timer makes an "error"--i.e. they're slow stopping the clock or sumthin' like that. Stopping the clock normally will always have a few tenths different from the start of the whistle to the stop. That's why the NCAA AR is written the way it is, with no time adjustment.

There is nothing in the OP that suggests a timing error occurring.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What timing error?

In this play, the timer stopped the clock properly as soon as he recognized the foul call. While stopping the clock, time ran out and the horn ended the period. There's no timing error to correct.

If you blow your whistle for a second, do you think that you should put a second back on the clock to account for the time between the beginning and end of your whistle blow? Don't think so. It's not practical.

You fix errors. This isn't an error.

So how much time are you allowing him to stop the clock before you consider it an error?

If I blow the whistle, see 1 second on the clock, and he allows the time to expire and the horn to sound, I can certainly count the basket, and put one second back on the clock.

5-10-1
The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock.

There is no more lag time or reaction time. That's over, gone, history. He no longer gets 1 second to stop the clock.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

There is no more lag time or reaction time. That's over, gone, history. He no longer gets 1 second to stop the clock.

You're talking about a timing error too.

See NFHS rule 5-6-2EXCEPTION2:--"If a held ball or violation occurs so near the expiration of time that the timer cannot get the clock stopped before time expires, the quarter or extra period ends with the held ball or violation."

The NCAA rule is exactly the same, and they also added the AR to make sure that you rule the same way for the situation when the ball is still in the shooter's hands when the horn goes off. If you don't add time for a held ball or violation, why would you add time for a foul under the exact same circumstances?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You're talking about a timing error too.

See NFHS rule 5-6-2EXCEPTION2:--"If a held ball or violation occurs so near the expiration of time that the timer cannot get the clock stopped before time expires, the quarter or extra period ends with the held ball or violation."

The NCAA rule is exactly the same, and they also added the AR to make sure that you rule the same way for the situation when the ball is still in the shooter's hands when the horn goes off. If you don't add time for a held ball or violation, why would you add time for a foul under the exact same circumstances?

But again, I ask, how much time are you allowing him to stop the clock before you consider it an error?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

But again, I ask, how much time are you allowing him to stop the clock before you consider it an error?

He hasn't answered because he can't. The clock is supposed to be stopped when the whistle sounds, not after. If it is after, there is an error. Sure, its not practially possible to do so but that is the rule. Sure the officials may not have information to correct it, but it is still an error.

JR asked why wouldn't you do the same for a foul as for a violation or held ball? Easy, because the rule only says to do that for a violation or held ball. The fact that it doesn't say so about a foul means it doesn't apply to a foul.

A shooter fouled before the horn gets to complete the shooting motion. Since the clock is stopped at the foul/whistle, it can't legally expire.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

1) He hasn't answered because he can't.

2) A shooter fouled before the horn gets to complete the shooting motion. Since the clock is stopped at the foul/whistle, it can't legally expire.

1) Well, of course I can't. Each play is different. This play being discussed isn't an error per se though.

2) Feel feel to explain why NCAA AR121 sez you're completely full of doodoo.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

This play being discussed isn't an error per se though.

If I see the clock move after the whistle, it's an error. If the horn sounds very close to the whistle and I don't have time to check the clock, then I don't have definite knowledge, and will not correct it even if it might be an error. But if I see it move after my whistle, then it's error and we're going to fix it.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

A shooter fouled before the horn gets to complete the shooting motion. Since the clock is stopped at the foul/whistle, it can't legally expire.

That's what I thought as well.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

That determination is made for each and every play. It sureasheck doesn't hold for all plays. If I feel that the timer was slow stopping the clock, and I have definite information that will allow me to adjust the clock, then I'll adjust the clock. If I feel that the whistle and horn were almost simultaneous, then the only thing that I have have to make a judgment on is whether the ball was still in the shooter's hands when the horn went. I can't put any time back on the clock when there isn't a timing error. If you think that I can, please cite a rule that will back your contention up.

All of which is my problem now and, Scrapper will remember, last year, too. They eliminate lag time create a problem foir which they've given us no answer.

How do you explain away NCAA AR121 btw?

Not to sound ugly but I don't work NCAA rules, nor have I read any of the discussion regarding NCAA rules. They don't apply to NFHS situations. Therefore, I can't explain it to you one way or another. Nor do I care what it says.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Not to sound ugly but I don't work NCAA rules, nor have I read any of the discussion regarding NCAA rules. They don't apply to NFHS situations. Therefore, I can't explain it to you one way or another. Nor do I care what it says.

Well, the FED and the NCAA have basically the same rules language concerning when the ball is dead, etc. The NCAA just went one step further with which is basically a case play.

What rules backing can you find under NFHS rules that will allow you to put time back on the clock? How do you explain away R5-6-2EXCEPTION2? If you can't put time back on the clock for a violation or held ball if the clock can't be stopped before time expires, why should you be able to put time back on the clock for a foul that happened under the exact same circumstances?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

They don't apply to NFHS situations.

NFHS case book play 5.6.2SitD does though. Just about the same ruling as NCAA AR121.