Free Throws with 0.00 showing on the clock...

[All_Heart]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I guess I'm not following your logic...if the shot is not released before the horn, it can't count. Period. If you are trying to play the "put a split second back on the clock" game - don't...if the horn is that close to the whistle for the foul, don't try to mess around with it.

If the shot is not released before the horn BUT there is a foul before the horn then the shot should count because the clock should have stopped with the horn.

If a foul took place (in this situation with the ball in the hands of the airborne shooter) then there has to be time on the clock because if the foul occured at 00.0 then it would have to be intentional or flagarant in order for there to be free throws.

I'm not trying to mess around with it. I was suprised by the rules and case plays that JR produced. I'm trying to understand why we would not put time back on the clock and count the basket. Hasn't this been discussed before? I tried searching the archives but couldn't find it.

[Adam]

if you have definite knowledge of how much time should be put back on the clock, then you can put it back on, count the basket, and shoot the appropriate free throws. Time hasn't expired, so you that's why you can count the basket. If you don't have definite knowledge, then you can't count the bucket since time officially expired prior to the release of the shot. Shoot the appropriate free throws with no time on the clock.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

if you have definite knowledge of how much time should be put back on the clock, then you can put it back on, count the basket, and shoot the appropriate free throws. Time hasn't expired, so you that's why you can count the basket.

Say what?

No, you can't count the basket and put time back on the clock. The horn went and the period ended with the ball still in the shooter's hands. The rules that I cited say that you can't adjust anything. AAMOF the NCAA AR couldn't be more explicit.

You and All_Heart are confusing a timing "mistake" with normal reaction time to stop the clock. The rules allow you to correct a mistake. This isn't a mistake. The clock was stopped properly.

[Adam]

JR, with the removal of the lag-time restriction on fixing timing errors, you absolutely can put time back on the clock and count the bucket. The caveat is simple, you must have definite knowledge of how much time to put back on.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

JR, with the removal of the lag-time restriction on fixing timing errors, you absolutely can put time back on the clock and count the bucket. The caveat is simple, you must have definite knowledge of how much time to put back on.

What timing error?

In this play, the timer stopped the clock properly as soon as he recognized the foul call. While stopping the clock, time ran out and the horn ended the period. There's no timing error to correct.

If you blow your whistle for a second, do you think that you should put a second back on the clock to account for the time between the beginning and end of your whistle blow? Don't think so. It's not practical.

You fix errors. This isn't an error.

[Adam]

Then why bother removing "lag time?"

[Mark Dexter]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Then why bother removing "lag time?"

They're taking the guesswork out of clock adjustment when the timer makes an "error"--i.e. they're slow stopping the clock or sumthin' like that. Stopping the clock normally will always have a few tenths different from the start of the whistle to the stop. That's why the NCAA AR is written the way it is, with no time adjustment.

There is nothing in the OP that suggests a timing error occurring.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What timing error?

In this play, the timer stopped the clock properly as soon as he recognized the foul call. While stopping the clock, time ran out and the horn ended the period. There's no timing error to correct.

If you blow your whistle for a second, do you think that you should put a second back on the clock to account for the time between the beginning and end of your whistle blow? Don't think so. It's not practical.

You fix errors. This isn't an error.

So how much time are you allowing him to stop the clock before you consider it an error?

If I blow the whistle, see 1 second on the clock, and he allows the time to expire and the horn to sound, I can certainly count the basket, and put one second back on the clock.

5-10-1
The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock.

There is no more lag time or reaction time. That's over, gone, history. He no longer gets 1 second to stop the clock.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

There is no more lag time or reaction time. That's over, gone, history. He no longer gets 1 second to stop the clock.

You're talking about a timing error too.

See NFHS rule 5-6-2EXCEPTION2:--"If a held ball or violation occurs so near the expiration of time that the timer cannot get the clock stopped before time expires, the quarter or extra period ends with the held ball or violation."

The NCAA rule is exactly the same, and they also added the AR to make sure that you rule the same way for the situation when the ball is still in the shooter's hands when the horn goes off. If you don't add time for a held ball or violation, why would you add time for a foul under the exact same circumstances?

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Say what?

No, you can't count the basket and put time back on the clock. The horn went and the period ended with the ball still in the shooter's hands. The rules that I cited say that you can't adjust anything. AAMOF the NCAA AR couldn't be more explicit.

You and All_Heart are confusing a timing "mistake" with normal reaction time to stop the clock. The rules allow you to correct a mistake. This isn't a mistake. The clock was stopped properly.

If the ball wasnt released, prior to the horn, shot is no good.

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

If the shot is not released before the horn BUT there is a foul before the horn then the shot should count because the clock should have stopped with the horn.

If a foul took place (in this situation with the ball in the hands of the airborne shooter) then there has to be time on the clock because if the foul occured at 00.0 then it would have to be intentional or flagarant in order for there to be free throws.

I'm not trying to mess around with it. I was suprised by the rules and case plays that JR produced. I'm trying to understand why we would not put time back on the clock and count the basket. Hasn't this been discussed before? I tried searching the archives but couldn't find it.

You might be thinking of this thread. It has the same concept. I don't think there was consensus on that one either......

Girl's Game Sitch - Basket or No Basket

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

Hasn't this been discussed before? I tried searching the archives but couldn't find it.

Yep, we knocked it around when some Carolina association issued a ruling about the play.

Foul then Buzzer then shot - Interesting brand new ruling

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Yep, we knocked it around when some Canadian association issued a ruling about the play.

Foul then Buzzer then shot - Interesting brand new ruling

Canada is in South Carolina?

[btaylor64]

I guess you have to go with the AR but it makes no sense.

If you have a foul and you know your whistle came before the horn then put time back on the clock and shoot the free throw (count the basket) or free throws (if unsucessful).

If the horn goes off before the release and you have a foul after the horn then just end the quarter, half or game. You can't have a foul unless it is a legitimate try and in this case it can't be because time has expired and the end of the quarter, half or regulation has occurred and the ball is considered to be dead.

This is a good play to talk about though.