Free Throws with 0.00 showing on the clock...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

2nd Sequence:I have always thought of this sequence which caused me to think that there had to be time on the clock if shooting free throws:

- A1 is in the act of shooting.
- B1 Fouls A1.
- A split second later time expires and the horn sounds.
- A1 releases shot and it goes in.

Ruling: Count the basket. Put time back on the clock (0.1 seconds if its so close you aren't sure). Shoot 1 free throw.

You may want to check this one out. It's wrong.

- if the ball is still in A1's hands when the horn goes to end a period, the ball is dead. No basket.
- A1 will shoot 2 FT's with the lanes cleared.
-There is no time put back on the clock.

The NCAA cite is rule 5-7-3(c) and AR121. NFHS rule is 6-7-7EXCEPTION.

[rockyroad]

I didn't ask you, ya old poop!!

[All_Heart]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You may want to check this one out. It's wrong.

- if the ball is still in A1's hands when the horn goes to end a period, the ball is dead. No basket.
- A1 will shoot 2 FT's with the lanes cleared.
-There is no time put back on the clock.

The NCAA cite is rule 5-7-3(c) and AR121. NFHS rule is 6-7-7EXCEPTION.

I removed the extra parts of A.R.121 to make it easier to read.

A.R. 121. With the score tied near the expiration of time in the second half shooter A1 is fouled in the act of shooting but time expires before the release of the ball
RULING: A1’s try shall be disallowed since it was not released before time expired. A1 shall attempt two free throws since the foul was committed before the expiration of time. When one free throw is successful, the game is over. When both free throws are unsuccessful, the game continues with an extra period(s).

SECTION 7 DEAD BALL
The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:
ART. 7 . . . A foul, other than player- or team-control, occurs (see exceptions a, b and c below).
EXCEPTION: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends, or until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when:
a. Article 5, 6, or 7 occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in flight.
b. Article 5 or 7 occurs while a try for a free throw is in flight.
c. Article 7 occurs by any opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal (is in the act of shooting) before the foul occurred, provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight. The trying motion must be continuous and begins after the ball comes to rest in the player's hand(s) on a try or touches the hand(s) on a tap, and is completed when the ball is clearly in flight. The trying motion may include arm, foot or body movements used by the player when throwing the ball at his/her basket.

WOW, I'm not following the logic of these rulings. Please help me to understand.

This is the way I see it.

The timer should have stopped the clock when the foul occured so time would never have expired. We have definite knowledge that the foul occured before the horn. So we have definite knowledge that at least .01 seconds should be put on the clock. Why would we not put .01 on the clock, count the basket and shoot 1 free throw??

[rockyroad]

I guess I'm not following your logic...if the shot is not released before the horn, it can't count. Period. If you are trying to play the "put a split second back on the clock" game - don't...if the horn is that close to the whistle for the foul, don't try to mess around with it.

[All_Heart]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I guess I'm not following your logic...if the shot is not released before the horn, it can't count. Period. If you are trying to play the "put a split second back on the clock" game - don't...if the horn is that close to the whistle for the foul, don't try to mess around with it.

If the shot is not released before the horn BUT there is a foul before the horn then the shot should count because the clock should have stopped with the horn.

If a foul took place (in this situation with the ball in the hands of the airborne shooter) then there has to be time on the clock because if the foul occured at 00.0 then it would have to be intentional or flagarant in order for there to be free throws.

I'm not trying to mess around with it. I was suprised by the rules and case plays that JR produced. I'm trying to understand why we would not put time back on the clock and count the basket. Hasn't this been discussed before? I tried searching the archives but couldn't find it.

[Adam]

if you have definite knowledge of how much time should be put back on the clock, then you can put it back on, count the basket, and shoot the appropriate free throws. Time hasn't expired, so you that's why you can count the basket. If you don't have definite knowledge, then you can't count the bucket since time officially expired prior to the release of the shot. Shoot the appropriate free throws with no time on the clock.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

if you have definite knowledge of how much time should be put back on the clock, then you can put it back on, count the basket, and shoot the appropriate free throws. Time hasn't expired, so you that's why you can count the basket.

Say what?

No, you can't count the basket and put time back on the clock. The horn went and the period ended with the ball still in the shooter's hands. The rules that I cited say that you can't adjust anything. AAMOF the NCAA AR couldn't be more explicit.

You and All_Heart are confusing a timing "mistake" with normal reaction time to stop the clock. The rules allow you to correct a mistake. This isn't a mistake. The clock was stopped properly.

[Adam]

JR, with the removal of the lag-time restriction on fixing timing errors, you absolutely can put time back on the clock and count the bucket. The caveat is simple, you must have definite knowledge of how much time to put back on.

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Say what?

No, you can't count the basket and put time back on the clock. The horn went and the period ended with the ball still in the shooter's hands. The rules that I cited say that you can't adjust anything. AAMOF the NCAA AR couldn't be more explicit.

You and All_Heart are confusing a timing "mistake" with normal reaction time to stop the clock. The rules allow you to correct a mistake. This isn't a mistake. The clock was stopped properly.

If the ball wasnt released, prior to the horn, shot is no good.

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

If the shot is not released before the horn BUT there is a foul before the horn then the shot should count because the clock should have stopped with the horn.

If a foul took place (in this situation with the ball in the hands of the airborne shooter) then there has to be time on the clock because if the foul occured at 00.0 then it would have to be intentional or flagarant in order for there to be free throws.

I'm not trying to mess around with it. I was suprised by the rules and case plays that JR produced. I'm trying to understand why we would not put time back on the clock and count the basket. Hasn't this been discussed before? I tried searching the archives but couldn't find it.

You might be thinking of this thread. It has the same concept. I don't think there was consensus on that one either......

Girl's Game Sitch - Basket or No Basket

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

Hasn't this been discussed before? I tried searching the archives but couldn't find it.

Yep, we knocked it around when some Carolina association issued a ruling about the play.

Foul then Buzzer then shot - Interesting brand new ruling

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Yep, we knocked it around when some Canadian association issued a ruling about the play.

Foul then Buzzer then shot - Interesting brand new ruling

Canada is in South Carolina?

[btaylor64]

I guess you have to go with the AR but it makes no sense.

If you have a foul and you know your whistle came before the horn then put time back on the clock and shoot the free throw (count the basket) or free throws (if unsucessful).

If the horn goes off before the release and you have a foul after the horn then just end the quarter, half or game. You can't have a foul unless it is a legitimate try and in this case it can't be because time has expired and the end of the quarter, half or regulation has occurred and the ball is considered to be dead.

This is a good play to talk about though.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Canada is in South Carolina?

It is when you get as tired as I was when I wrote that!
I've gone back and fixed it.