Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
Actually, I've understood it all along. And, for the most part, I don't disagree with most of your premises.
I still have a couple of questions for you. First, you keep bringing up 4.41.4(b), which has to do specifically with a try. We all agree the OP is not a try. That's how I eliminate that case from consideration. I assume you're making the connection that a "throw" and a "try" are the same because they are listed together 5-2-1. So, since there is no rule book definition of a thrown ball, are you saying that common sense tells us that a thrown ball and a try are the same?
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Yep, the OP is definitely a pass. That is why 5-2-1 doesn't apply. That is my main point. You must consider the NFHS rules as a whole when making a ruling on this play. You can't just focus on a single rule such as 5-2-1 and go solely by what it says. That will lead you to the wrong conclusion. :)
It is quite clear that a throw and a try are
NOT the same. The NFHS put in rule 5-2-1 in order to give the offense the benefit of the doubt in cases in which the official could not clearly distinguish a try from a pass. I believe that you have been misplacing the emphasis in the sentence from the comment on that rule change. I have underline the part that I think is of paramount importance.
"
While in most situations a "try" can be differentiated from a pass, to eliminate possible confusion this change should help to clarify by not requiring judgment as to whether the ball in flight was a pass or try."
It is my opinion that the NFHS never intended this rule to be used for cases in which the player was
CLEARLY PASSING the ball such as many of the examples given by bz and the one in the OP. However, it should be applied in those situations in which the official isn't sure whether the player was passing or trying for goal, and thinks "well, he might have been shooting."
Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
If so, you have avoided my question that I've asked a couple of times - if A1 is throwing the ball from behind the arc, and is fouled in the act of throwing the ball, would you award 3 FT's? Are you saying that since "try, tap, or thrown ball from the field" are listed together in 5-2-1, they have the same status and meaning? If so, then do the "floor, teammate inside the arc, and official" all have exactly the same status and meaning, since they are also listed together in the same rule?
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Sorry, I didn't mean to avoid your question, which btw I think is a good one.
My answer is that if the official deems that the player was clearly passing/throwing the ball while
NOT making an attempt to score, then awarding FTs would be unjustified. The penalty section of Rule 10 clearly states that free throws are only awarded if "fouled in the act of shooting and try or tap is unsuccessful" and 4-41-1 defines act of shooting to involve a try, not a throw or pass.
Of course, that doesn't change my position on the play in the OP. It merely means that this play is one in which the official can clearly deem that the player was passing and thus it lies outside the scope of 5-2-1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
The only point I've been making is, as written, the rule states the OP is a 3-point play. Could the Fed. make their intent clearer? Absolutely. But, until they do, I'm not going to assume anything, from possible intent, the definition of a thrown ball, the connection between thrown ball vs. try, etc. I'm just going with what the rule and case play actually say.
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Now I don't agree with that point because I believe that you are taking a rule out of context and attempting to apply it to a situation for which it was not intended. Not surprisingly this yields bizarre results.
Here's a play for you. Alter the OP such that the ball merely bounces around on the ring and does NOT go in, but while the ball is up there B2 fouls A2, who is still outside the 3pt line. Are you going to award him 3 FT? Let's even say that A2 jumped in the air to make the pass and A2 fouled him before he returned to the floor. When does the ball become dead on this play?