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So in this case where it is clear the ball isn't going into the basket BEFORE it is touched, ends the original throw/try and 5-2-1 no longer applies. |
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And if basketball adopts a protest rule a la baseball, I'd be more than happy to be overturned on protest (since that's the way I think the rule should read). In my game, in the heat of the moment, I'm giving the TD signal and we're moving on. |
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What is missed here that is obvious to me is Fed. is saying a throw from behind the 3-pt arc could be considered a shot because and only because it is so far away. You may have to throw the ball to get the distance (behind the half court line) as opposed to a shot. What the Fed. didn't consider was a thrown ball to a team mate accidentally knocked in by the defense. This is not, imo, what the Fed. wants and they need to revisit this scenario.
A thrown ball to a teammate from outside the arc that's reflected by the defense inside the arc should not be counted as 3 because it was not a try for goal. How do you determine? Referees judgment. If it was a try for goal, that's different. If it was a pass to a teammate, award 2 points. The ones that are arguing this is 3 pt goal, don't really understand basketball and the intent behind the rules. They are caught up in the words in the rulebook and it has therefore clouded their judgment. Paralysis from analysis, can't see the forest for the trees. |
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Again, as I have stated before, I agree with both bz and Camron in theory. It doesn't seem right that A1 could throw a hard pass of the back of B1's head, it bounces up and through the basket, and that would be worth 3 points. But there is no definitive direction in the rules other than what is actually written, and as 5.2.1(c) is written, there is no distinction as to where the defender touches the ball, other than to say they are inside the arc. To say there is a distinction between above and below the rim, or the ball wasn't originally heading towards the basket, etc. is making an assumption, or reading into the rule something that isn't there. Until the Fed. issues a clarification, the OP is 3 points. |
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What is right here is the intent and purpose of the rule. The intent is not to reward 3 points to a non-shot. I don't believe that to my heart and will never believe that is the intent of the rule. We're just left with a situation that is not explained in words in the rulebook. You guys found it. I imagine there's probably more but don't confuse the lack of a written caseplay to be that of law. Good discussion on the merits of this rule and this forum at it's best. |
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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Nevadaref That is why I believe that Dexter and M&M are incorrect about the application of this rule. As long as 4.41.4SitB remains in the book, it is impossible to use their checklist way of thinking. Simply because that play meets all of the items in the checklist, yet the NFHS still says that the goal is only worth TWO points. They have no answer for that. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Quote:
Do you understand my position now? :) |
I cannot believe this discussion has gone on for 6 pages.
Read 4-41-4: "The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead." It doesn't matter if it was a try or a throw from behind the arc. What matters is if the referee judges the orignal throw is certain to be unsuccessful. On a throw that originates behind the arc and in touched by a defensive player near the right block (as stated in the OP) you have one of two choices - GT or a throw that is certain will not go through the hoop. If it was not GT then the try has ended by definition. Case 4.41.4 then applies. To argue 5.2.1 applies over the defintion in 4-41-4 and case play 4.41.4 is irresponsible, you are picking a choosing what you wish to enforce. If you did that in my area, say goodbye to varsity and post season refereeing. Cases repeated here again for reference. 4.41.4 SITUATION B: A1's three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. RULING: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1) 5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area. |
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I still have a couple of questions for you. First, you keep bringing up 4.41.4(b), which has to do specifically with a <B>try</B>. We all agree the OP is <B>not a try</B>. That's how I eliminate that case from consideration. I assume you're making the connection that a "throw" and a "try" are the same because they are listed together 5-2-1. So, since there is no rule book definition of a thrown ball, are you saying that common sense tells us that a thrown ball and a try are the same? If so, you have avoided my question that I've asked a couple of times - if A1 is throwing the ball from behind the arc, and is fouled in the act of throwing the ball, would you award 3 FT's? Are you saying that since "try, tap, or thrown ball from the field" are listed together in 5-2-1, they have the same status and meaning? If so, then do the "floor, teammate inside the arc, and official" all have exactly the same status and meaning, since they are also listed together in the same rule? The only point I've been making is, as written, the rule states the OP is a 3-point play. Could the Fed. make their intent clearer? Absolutely. But, until they do, I'm not going to assume anything, from possible intent, the definition of a thrown ball, the connection between thrown ball vs. try, etc. I'm just going with what the rule and case play actually say. |
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Ref in PA - I understand what you are saying, but 4-41-2 has to do specifically with the definition of a try: "A player is trying for goal when the player has the ball and in the official's judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for goal."
5-2-1 is taking away the judgement of whether or not the player is actually attempting a try in determining whether to award 2 points or 3. If the player is behind the arc when the ball is thrown, the official does not have to determine it is a "try" in order to award 3 points. The obvious example is the alley-oop, where A1 is outside the arc and passing it to A2 for the dunk, A2 misses it, and the ball goes through the basket. It's still 3 points, even though it wasn't a "try". |
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