gps-5

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by 112448
And furthermore, i have REREAD your post and it has everything to do with the original post by Crew. Mark Dexter was answering the original post - SO by responding to Mr. Dexter, you were responding to the original post.

Read the rule. There is NO QUESTION that by the rule, Mark Dexter and myself DO have a leg to stand on. Read the rule.

Once again, I am simply referring to Mark's reply regarding the 10 second count versus the 35 second clock. I could give AFRA about crew or his intial post, as I no longer reply to his posts. I am referring to a throw-in play. Does that sound like the play that crew described in his initial post?

BTW, Joe's response is not in conflict with 2-13-5. That rule simply states when the device is started. It doesn't address anything having to do with the 10 second count. Again, Joe's comments and my reply were both addressing a THROW-IN, since you love to use CAPS.

Good grief!

[112448]

Bball Ref -

I apologize that i misunderstood that you were talking about a throw-in play. since Crew's initial post and Mark D's follow-up had to do with a reset after a missed shot and you didn't specify otherwise, i had to think that you were responding to the initial post, not a throw-in sich.

as far as using all caps, if you can give me any other methods for me to add emphasis to my posts (other than itallics), i'd be more than happy for you to teach me. i mean no offense using caps - it's simply a good way for me to add emphasis.

have a good holiday season.

jake

[BktBallRef]

They're called html tags and they work like this.

Use [ ] with a B between them for bold face. When you end the boldface, use [ / ] with a B.

Use [ ] with a i between them for italics. When you end the boldface, use [ / ] with a i.

Use [ ] with a u between them for underline. When you end the boldface, use [ / ] with a u.

If that's confusing, click on quote and you'll see the tags.

[crew]

the rule book says you have 10 sec to advance the ball into your frontcourt (not human sec but actual). no one person has a perfect count, that is why the shot clock is more acurate. (this may not be verbatim but you get the picture) in the original post i stated the clock started properly. since 10 seconds have elapsed a violation would be correct, though i see everyones logic to say the clock may have ran after the whistle. in that case adding a sec to the game clock and shotclock would be a correct procedure and also save your rear.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

112448 originally posted the following:

"The original post was refering to a missed shot and rebound, therefore you DO NOT have a reset until the rebounding team gains possession. The situation to which you refer, i.e., the shot clock starting when it is touched inbounds, occurs on throw-in situations. See the rules reference below:

2002 NCAA Rules 2-13-5 found on BR-42
"Start the timing device when a player inbounds legally touches or is touched by the ball on a throw-in or WHEN A TEAM INITIALLY GAINS POSSESSION from a jump ball, an unsuccessfl try for goal or a loose ball."

As far as the original question goes...I would grant the 30-SECOND time out and be prepared to explain to the coach, prior to leaving the floor for the half or during the next extended opportunity (maybe a media time-out) why I didn't have a 10-second violation.

"My count was on 9 coach. When the clock shows 25, there is between 25.9 and 25.0 seconds left on the shot clock. Since he called a time out with 25 still showing and MY COUNT was at 9, I have to honor the time out request."

I'd then let the coach get the last little jab in and walk away."


Crew later posted the following:

"The rule book says you have 10 sec to advance the ball into your frontcourt (not human sec but actual). No one person has a perfect count, that is why the shot clock is more acurate. (This may not be verbatim but you get the picture.) In the original post I stated the clock started properly. Since 10 seconds have elapsed a violation would be correct, though iIsee everyone's logic to say the clock may have ran after the whistle. In that case adding a sec to the game clock and shotclock would be a correct procedure and also save your rear."


While the original posting concerns the shot clock in a men's game, the correct ruling would also apply to the shot clock in a women's game (there is no ten second count in the women's game but five second counts could complicate the shot clock situation), and the game clock situation in both NCAA Men's & Women's and NFHS games.

Crew is incorrect when he states that the ten second count is not a human count but a clock ("actual" is the word that he used) count. NCAA R2-S8-A8(Men), A9(Women), and NFHS R2-S7-A9 state that the officials shall silently and visibly count seconds to administer the throw-in, free throw (high school only), backcourt and closely guarded rules.

Both rules codes are clear that the official's visible count that governs. While Crew is correct when he states that no official has a prefectly timed count, the visible count is the correct count.

112448's posting about how to handle the situation is about as good as an official can handle it. NFHS Casebook Plays 5.10.1B, C, D & E and 5.10.2 can lend some insight into the play that was posted.

I do have a personal observation about calling a ten second violation when a game/shot clock is involved: make sure that at least ten seconds has elapsed on the game/shot clock. It just makes officiating easier.

But more importantly, officiating supervisors do not have the authority to tell officials to use the shot clock to administer the ten second rule. The rules do not allow it and officiating supervisors are wrong to give officials directives that are not in compliance with the rules.

[112448]

test

thanks for the help bball ref. no more all caps for me, unless i really am yelling!!



jake

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
But more importantly, officiating supervisors do not have the authority to tell officials to use the shot clock to administer the ten second rule. The rules do not allow it and officiating supervisors are wrong to give officials directives that are not in compliance with the rules.

Whether they have the authority or not, when I get up to doing their conferences, I'm going to administer the 10 second count however they want it done!

[crew]

i am just taking good advice from a great nc2a official. 10 seconds is 10 seconds. dont get caught up in the human count, its not believable. back yourself with factual info that is more reliable and consistent. one officials count maybe faster than your own or slower, we want to give both ends of the floor the same shake. consistency!

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by 112448
test

thanks for the help bball ref. no more all caps for me, unless i really am yelling!!
jake

[eroe39]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
112448 originally posted the following:

"The original post was refering to a missed shot and rebound, therefore you DO NOT have a reset until the rebounding team gains possession. The situation to which you refer, i.e., the shot clock starting when it is touched inbounds, occurs on throw-in situations. See the rules reference below:

2002 NCAA Rules 2-13-5 found on BR-42
"Start the timing device when a player inbounds legally touches or is touched by the ball on a throw-in or WHEN A TEAM INITIALLY GAINS POSSESSION from a jump ball, an unsuccessfl try for goal or a loose ball."

As far as the original question goes...I would grant the 30-SECOND time out and be prepared to explain to the coach, prior to leaving the floor for the half or during the next extended opportunity (maybe a media time-out) why I didn't have a 10-second violation.

"My count was on 9 coach. When the clock shows 25, there is between 25.9 and 25.0 seconds left on the shot clock. Since he called a time out with 25 still showing and MY COUNT was at 9, I have to honor the time out request."

I'd then let the coach get the last little jab in and walk away."


Crew later posted the following:

"The rule book says you have 10 sec to advance the ball into your frontcourt (not human sec but actual). No one person has a perfect count, that is why the shot clock is more acurate. (This may not be verbatim but you get the picture.) In the original post I stated the clock started properly. Since 10 seconds have elapsed a violation would be correct, though iIsee everyone's logic to say the clock may have ran after the whistle. In that case adding a sec to the game clock and shotclock would be a correct procedure and also save your rear."


While the original posting concerns the shot clock in a men's game, the correct ruling would also apply to the shot clock in a women's game (there is no ten second count in the women's game but five second counts could complicate the shot clock situation), and the game clock situation in both NCAA Men's & Women's and NFHS games.

Crew is incorrect when he states that the ten second count is not a human count but a clock ("actual" is the word that he used) count. NCAA R2-S8-A8(Men), A9(Women), and NFHS R2-S7-A9 state that the officials shall silently and visibly count seconds to administer the throw-in, free throw (high school only), backcourt and closely guarded rules.

Both rules codes are clear that the official's visible count that governs. While Crew is correct when he states that no official has a prefectly timed count, the visible count is the correct count.

112448's posting about how to handle the situation is about as good as an official can handle it. NFHS Casebook Plays 5.10.1B, C, D & E and 5.10.2 can lend some insight into the play that was posted.

I do have a personal observation about calling a ten second violation when a game/shot clock is involved: make sure that at least ten seconds has elapsed on the game/shot clock. It just makes officiating easier.

But more importantly, officiating supervisors do not have the authority to tell officials to use the shot clock to administer the ten second rule. The rules do not allow it and officiating supervisors are wrong to give officials directives that are not in compliance with the rules.

Mark, just wanted to clear something up with you about the shot clock. When the shot clock reads 35 it is on 35 from 35.0 to 34.1. For example, the shot clock does not start on 35.9 every time we get a new shot clock. When the shot clock reads 25 it is on 25 from 25.0 until 24.1. When the shot clock is on 1 it is on 1 from 1.0 to 0.1. When the shot clock reads 0 it is on 0. According to what you stated earlier than if the shot clock is at 0 than it could actually be at 0.9 which is not true because the horn sounds at 0. I used to not be sure about this as well but it was made clear to me my first year in the CBA. This is a tough play crew brought up. If you are sure the timeout was before the shot clock hit 25 I would put 26 on the shot clock and add one to the game clock which I have actually done before. If you don't then the coach, players, and others will not understand how 10 seconds could elapse but no ten second call is made. If you are not sure I would call the ten second violation here. You are totally backed up by the shot clock. Of course, I am assuming as Crew stated, that the shot clock started correctly. Mark, how do you quote just a sentence or two without quoting the entire posting? That's what I wanted to do in this case.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by eroe39
Mark, how do you quote just a sentence or two without quoting the entire posting? That's what I wanted to do in this case.

Eli, just click on quote and then highlight and delete everything you don't want.

Eli, have you worked or are you scheduled for a game in Fayetteville with the Patriots? I'd love to watch you work some night.

[eroe39]

BasketballRef, I tried to shoot you a personal e-mail. Let me know if you didn't get it.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by eroe39
[BMark, just wanted to clear something up with you about the shot clock. When the shot clock reads 35 it is on 35 from 35.0 to 34.1. For example, the shot clock does not start on 35.9 every time we get a new shot clock. When the shot clock reads 25 it is on 25 from 25.0 until 24.1. When the shot clock is on 1 it is on 1 from 1.0 to 0.1. When the shot clock reads 0 it is on 0. According to what you stated earlier than if the shot clock is at 0 than it could actually be at 0.9 which is not true because the horn sounds at 0. I used to not be sure about this as well but it was made clear to me my first year in the CBA. [/B]

I (obviously) can't speak for the CBA, but NCAA 2-13.8 states, "When the shot clock indicates 0:00 but the horn has not sounded, time has not expired." I read that to mean that there is between 0.1 and 0.9 when the clock reads 0. In fact, I saw this on TV during some game over the past week or so.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by bob jenkins
I (obviously) can't speak for the CBA, but NCAA 2-13.8 states, "When the shot clock indicates 0:00 but the horn has not sounded, time has not expired." I read that to mean that there is between 0.1 and 0.9 when the clock reads 0. In fact, I saw this on TV during some game over the past week or so.

The rule is different in the NBA, and therefore, CBA, WNBA, and NBDL, I would think.

Rule 7, Section II
g. If the 24-second clock reads 0, a 24-second violation has occurred, even though the horn may not have sounded.

An interesting difference. I can't imagine that the actual shot clocks are any different but the rules definitely are.

[eroe39]

I (obviously) can't speak for the CBA, but NCAA 2-13.8 states, "When the shot clock indicates 0:00 but the horn has not sounded, time has not expired." I read that to mean that there is between 0.1 and 0.9 when the clock reads 0. In fact, I saw this on TV during some game over the past week or so. [/B][/QUOTE]

Bob, good point, my understanding was that the modern clocks have a horn at 0 and that the clock does not stay at 0 for 0.9 seconds. I certainly have never seen a clock in a college game that stays on 0 for almost a full second before the horn goes off. However, I am sure if the clock is not perfectly synchronized with the horn there could be a .1 or .2 difference between the horn and 0, which is probably what you saw in the TV game. I do remember a high school gym where I used to work a lot where the clock stayed at 0 a full second before the horn went off. This was a very old clock. The clock operator would actually always tell the officials this so it would not surprise them.