Coach wants a timeout...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by DC_Ref12

Again, in principle I agree with you. However, nothing in that rule backs up what you're asserting.

Only by applying "common sense" do you come to your conclusion, not by application of the wording of the rule. I'm merely pointing out that a) either the rule needs a bit of tightening up in this regard or b) it's not entirely true to suggest that my OP is procedurally incorrect.

What part of the following can't you understand?

NFHS Rule 4-8-3:
Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official GRANTS a player's/head coach's oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted ONLY when:
a) The ball is in control of or at the disposal of of a player or his team.
b) The ball is dead, unless replacement of a disqualified, or injured player(s), or a player directed to leave the game is pending, and a substitute(s) is available or required.

It's not "common sense". The rule lays out exactly when you can grant a TO request, and "sometime in the future" isn't part of what's laid out in that rule. The problem isn't with the way the rule is written. The problem is with people not understanding what the rule is saying.

[LarryS]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What part of the following can't you understand?

NFHS Rule 4-8-3:
Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official GRANTS a player's/head coach's oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted ONLY when:
a) The ball is in control of or at the disposal of of a player or his team.
b) The ball is dead, unless replacement of a disqualified, or injured player(s), or a player directed to leave the game is pending, and a substitute(s) is available or required.

It's not "common sense". The rule lays out exactly when you can grant a TO request, and "sometime in the future" isn't part of what's laid out in that rule. The problem isn't with the way the rule is written. The problem is with people not understanding what the rule is saying.

OK...I KNOW it is best if the request and granting of said request happen at about the same time. HOWEVER, Jurassic please highlight the portion of the rule you posted that states the REQUEST can only be made during one of those two cases...rule states it can only be GRANTED during those time.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by LarryS

OK...I KNOW it is best if the request and granting of said request happen at about the same time. HOWEVER, Jurassic please highlight the portion of the rule you posted that states the REQUEST can only be made during one of those two cases...rule states it can only be GRANTED during those time.

Sigh....

See post #20 that I made at 2.28pm today. In that, I said that it doesn't matter one damn bit WHEN a TO is requested. The rules however state exactly when an official can grant a TO request. The only time that you can grant a legal TO request is at the time that is being requested. That's what 5-8-3 is telling you. If the play stops 3 minutes from now and there is no TO request made, howinthehell can you grant one?

If you and DC want to believe otherwise, hey, then feel free to do so. Of course, you probably should bear in mind that you have absolutely no rules backing to do what you want to do, but don't let something like that stop either of you from doing so.



I'm done repeating myself on this one.

Jurassic could you break this down for me one last time j/k

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Jurassic could you break this down for me one last time j/k

Certainly.

At some point it becomes a complete waste of time to argue something. That's where this thread is at. If you don't agree with something posted on this forum, the easiest thing to do is to take it to your Association rules interpreter or, even better, somebody from your applicable state rules governing body. I suggest that would be the best course of action for DC_12 to follow. Hopefully he will check back in here with his answer.

If you don't agree with those sources, you're in the wrong bidness.

Btw, this particular situation has come up several times before on this forum. Surprise, surprise....

[DC_Ref12]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The problem is with people not understanding what the rule is saying.

You included.

Again, the rule lays out when you can grant a TO request.

And that is: a) player or team control or b) dead ball.

It says NOTHING about the interval of time between the request and the granting.

NOTHING.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by DC_Ref12

You included.

Again, the rule lays out when you can grant a TO request.

And that is: a) player or team control or b) dead ball.

It says NOTHING about the interval of time between the request and the granting.

NOTHING.

So, would you grant the coach's request for a TO after the other team goes on that 8-0 run? Remember, the coach requested it before the game started, and the run didn't happen until the 3rd quarter. Since you say nothing is mentioned in the rules about the interval of time between the request and granting, would you allow this?

Let me add another wrinkle - let's say the team has already used their TO allotment. Since you are granting the request, do you also assess the T for requesting an excessive TO?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by DC_Ref12

lots of stuff

I understand what you're saying and you are correct, as you already knew.

Bottom line is this (to all, not just you): a request can be made at any time. It's up to the official to either grant or not grant the request. The official uses the rule to determine if s/he should grant the TO. There are four possibilities in the 2x2 matrix:

1. Properly granting the request (request granted)
   - eg: Team A has inbounds player control of the ball + Coach A requests a TO + TO is granted
2. Properly denying the request (ie. request denied)
   - eg: Team A has inbounds player control of the ball + Coach B requests a TO + TO is denied
3. Improperly granting the request (ie. shouldn't've been granted)
   - eg: Team A has inbounds team control of the ball and the ball is being passed when Coach A requests a TO + it is granted
4. Improperly denying the request (ie. should have been granted)
   - eg: Team A has inbounds player control of the ball + Coach A requests a TO + TO is NOT granted

If a coach requests a TO, and just after the request, his player loses player control of the ball, an opponent steals the ball and is on a breakaway for a game winning basket in the state championship with the B player likely to get a full scholarship to (insert your favourite NCAA team), the TO request shall be granted. A good official will have his whistle as soon as s/he can, and not care what happens to the B player and the breakaway.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by DC_Ref12

lots of stuff

I understand what you're saying and you are correct, as you already knew.

Bottom line is this (to all, not just you): a request can be made at any time. It's up to the official to either grant or not grant the request. The official uses the rule to determine if s/he should grant the TO. There are four possibilities in the 2x2 matrix:

1. Properly granting the request (request granted)
   - eg: Team A has inbounds player control of the ball + Coach A requests a TO + TO is granted
2. Properly denying the request (ie. request denied)
   - eg: Team A has inbounds player control of the ball + Coach B requests a TO + TO is denied
3. Improperly granting the request (ie. shouldn't've been granted)
   - eg: Team A has inbounds team control of the ball and the ball is being passed when Coach A requests a TO + it is granted
4. Improperly denying the request (ie. should have been granted)
   - eg: Team A has inbounds player control of the ball + Coach A requests a TO + TO is NOT granted

If a coach requests a TO, and just after the request, his player loses player control of the ball, an opponent steals the ball and is on a breakaway for a game winning basket in the state championship with the B player likely to get a full scholarship to (insert your favorite NCAA team), the TO request shall be granted. A good official will have his whistle as soon as s/he can, and not care what happens to the B player and the breakaway.