Coach wants a timeout...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by DC_Ref12

The rule does not specify that a coach may not request a timeout for a future occurence. It only says specifies when an official may grant a timeout.

Yup, it sureasheck does tell you when to grant a legal request for a TO. That's exactly why you can't grant pre-requests. It ain't specified in the rule as being one of the only occasions during which TO requests may be granted.

[DC_Ref12]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yup, it sureasheck does tell you when to grant a legal request for a TO. That's exactly why you can't grant pre-requests. It ain't specified in the rule as being one of the only occasions during which TO requests may be granted.

JR, the rule book gives NO guidelines on the requesting of a timeout. None. Only the granting of a timeout.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by DC_Ref12

JR, the rule book gives NO guidelines on the requesting of a timeout. None. Only the granting of a timeout.

Take another look at 5-8-3. They request, we grant, assuming the timing of both is proper. There is no provision for a "delay" between asking and receiving.

[DC_Ref12]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

Take another look at 5-8-3. They request, we grant, assuming the timing of both is proper. There is no provision for a "delay" between asking and receiving.

Again, the timing is specifically linked to the "granting" and not the "request" as outlined in the rule.

I understand your point, but I also do not know for sure that because there is no provision mentioned, it is not allowed.

I'm just not convinced that it's not something that is allowed. I agree that it's poor procedure and, as JRut pointed out, can lead to confusion and therefore shouldn't be used, but I'm not really willing to concede - for the sake of argument - that it's illegal per se.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by DC_Ref12

Again, the timing is specifically linked to the "granting" and not the "request" as outlined in the rule.

I understand your point, but I also do not know for sure that because there is no provision mentioned, it is not allowed.

I'm just not convinced that it's not something that is allowed. I agree that it's poor procedure and, as JRut pointed out, can lead to confusion and therefore shouldn't be used, but I'm not really willing to concede - for the sake of argument - that it's illegal per se.

A basic rule of thumb is when a rule does not specifically allow something it is a stretch to assume you can do it. In a situation like this it really is a stretch. BTW, a coach can only request a timeout. Officials actually grant them and I am not granting one with "if...." and "when this happens...." as apart of my duties.

Peace

[The Canuck]

I ask the coach to speak to the scorekeeper. Once the free throw has been taken, the scorekeeper will then sound the horn, at which point the timeout shall be granted.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by The Canuck

I ask the coach to speak to the scorekeeper. Once the free throw has been taken, the scorekeeper will then sound the horn, at which point the timeout shall be granted.

That must be a FIBA expectation. That does not apply to any rules in the US.

Peace

[DC_Ref12]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

A basic rule of thumb is when a rule does not specifically allow something it is a stretch to assume you can do it. In a situation like this it really is a stretch.

Fair enough. Makes sense.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by DC_Ref12

JR, the rule book gives NO guidelines on the requesting of a timeout. None. Only the granting of a timeout.

Say what?

What's your point? That's exactly what we've been discussing.....whether to grant a TO request or not. They can request a TO during the pre-game warm-up also, but we've also got a rule that says they ain't gonna get that request granted either. Rule 5-8-3 lists the ONLY times that you can grant a TO request. If you grant one at any other time, you've screwed up.

[DC_Ref12]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What's your point?

Let me explain again.

The rules do NOT specify when a timeout may be reuqested, only when one may or may not be granted.

Based on that assumption and setting aside JRut's "word to the wise" interpretation for a moment, I'm suggesting that there is nothing in the rule book which indicates that it is illegal or inappropriate for a coach to request a timeout which is granted at a later time.

You said it is incorrect procedure. While I agree with JRut's "word to the wise" interpretation, from a strict constructionist point of view, I can see nothing incorrect about this procedure.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by DC_Ref12

Let me explain again.

The rules do NOT specify when a timeout may be reuqested, only when one may or may not be granted.

Based on that assumption and setting aside JRut's "word to the wise" interpretation for a moment, I'm suggesting that there is nothing in the rule book which indicates that it is illegal or inappropriate for a coach to request a timeout which is granted at a later time.

You said it is incorrect procedure. While I agree with JRut's "word to the wise" interpretation, from a strict constructionist point of view, I can see nothing incorrect about this procedure.

All right, let me throw out an obviously far-out example. A coach comes up to you before the game and tells you he wants a TO the first time the other team goes on an 8-0 run.

What do you tell him?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by DC_Ref12

Let me explain again.

The rules do NOT specify when a timeout may be reuqested, only when one may or may not be granted.

Based on that assumption and setting aside JRut's "word to the wise" interpretation for a moment, I'm suggesting that there is nothing in the rule book which indicates that it is illegal or inappropriate for a coach to request a timeout which is granted at a later time.

A coach can request a TO any time that he damn-well feels like, even when we're in the shower after the game. There is nothing that is illegal or inappropriate about the request. What IS illegal and inappropriate is if you grant that TO at a later time. That would be completely wrong, by rule.

TO requests can ONLY be GRANTED as per rule 5-8-3. Pre-requests cannot be granted later, by that very specific rule.

Are you saying that the rules will allow you to grant a TO at any time other than when that TO request is made? If so, you are completely wrong.

[DC_Ref12]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

That would be completely wrong, by rule.

Again, in principle I agree with you. However, nothing in that rule backs up what you're asserting.

Only by applying "common sense" do you come to your conclusion, not by application of the wording of the rule. I'm merely pointing out that a) either the rule needs a bit of tightening up in this regard or b) it's not entirely true to suggest that my OP is procedurally incorrect.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by DC_Ref12

Again, in principle I agree with you. However, nothing in that rule backs up what you're asserting.

Only by applying "common sense" do you come to your conclusion, not by application of the wording of the rule. I'm merely pointing out that a) either the rule needs a bit of tightening up in this regard or b) it's not entirely true to suggest that my OP is procedurally incorrect.

What part of the following can't you understand?

NFHS Rule 4-8-3:
Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official GRANTS a player's/head coach's oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted ONLY when:
a) The ball is in control of or at the disposal of of a player or his team.
b) The ball is dead, unless replacement of a disqualified, or injured player(s), or a player directed to leave the game is pending, and a substitute(s) is available or required.

It's not "common sense". The rule lays out exactly when you can grant a TO request, and "sometime in the future" isn't part of what's laid out in that rule. The problem isn't with the way the rule is written. The problem is with people not understanding what the rule is saying.

[DC_Ref12]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Are you saying that the rules will allow you to grant a TO at any time other than when that TO request is made? If so, you are completely wrong.

What I am saying (for the third time now) is that the rule DOES NOT specify that the request - and the granting of that request - HAVE to happen simultaneously.

If you can find me verbage within the rule that suggests otherwise, I'd love to see it. But I've looked, and I can't find it.