gps-4

[crew]

on fast break situation (1 0n 2) (a1 vs b1,b2) a1 drives the ball to the basket, beats b1 and goes for the lay in. at the same time b2 jumps from secondary coverage and blocks the ball and it sails near the center court. after the blocked shot and before the 2 come to the ground b2 makes body contact with a1 and a1 subsequently goes to the floor.

i have no foul on the play. what do you guys think about this play?

[Mark Dexter]

Crew, you're going to be the death of us all

This is a shooting foul by B2. A1 is still a shooter until he returns to the floor, at least in NF rules.

[crew]

i almost always consider the contact after the blocked shot incidental.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

The fact that B2 was able to block the shot does not get him off the hook for a foul. B2 must have control of his body during the entire play and if he cannot block the shot without making contact elsewhere on A1, then he is guilthy of a persoanl foul.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by crew
i almost always consider the contact after the blocked shot incidental.

If it's truly incidental, it's incidental. If it's a foul, it's a foul irregardless of whether the ball was knocked away or not.

[hooters]

I GOT NUTTIN!

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by hooters
I GOT NUTTIN!

Since you got nuttin you must be a player and not an official.

[eroe39]

Crew, you always seem to stir up controversy on this website. I think you love doing it. In my opinion once the defender blocks the shot, secondary defender or not, contact after the block should not be considered a foul unless extremely violent. The blocked shot play to me is where you really see a difference between officials. Too many officials call blocked shots fouls. If the defender gets ball first and then arm or body try to reward the great athletic block and let the crowd get excited without putting your stamp on the game. Don't be so pure, especially if the defender just contacts the arm after the ball. Sometimes I even pass when the defender slightly contacts the arm first and then gets a lot of ball. I go with the big picture, the block shot, instead of microdotting and saying he clipped his arm. If a player gets 80% ball and 20% arm at the same time I go with the block. Now, if he clips his arm and then does not get the ball a foul must be called as this slight contact has a big effect on a shooter. Ask any shooter. The defender should be penalized for not being able to jump high enough to get to the ball. Reward athletic players as basketball is an athletic game. However, don't call this arm clip play on a made layup or a dunk which would result in a cheap 3 point play. Have a patient whistle and only come in late if the layup or dunk is missed. Also, try not to call fouls when players get hit on the arm after the release as this hit has no effect on the shot. Shooters get hit on the arm a lot after the release especially on drives to the hole and layups. Please don't call this a foul. Now, if a player gets sent to the floor after the release with body contact and no blocked shot on the play a foul needs to be called. Boy, I am really getting off the subject. I love to ramble. I guess since I used to be a teacher. The key is not to be too pure. The same thing goes with steals or stips. If the arm is slightly contacted but the defender gets a lot of ball go with the strip. Also, if a player gets hit on the arm on a steal attempt and does not lose the ball or his rhythm is not upset go with a no call. Also, if a player gets hit on the arm on a shot and then runs over someone like a train then ignore the hit to the arm and go with the charge. Referee the whole play, the big picture. Everyone sees the train wreck. Don't come in with some microdot call such as a player getting hit on the arm first. I recognize that these philosophies are probably not applied in the high school games as much, but for those of you interested in the college game these philosophies are taught and for those of you interested in the pro game these philosophies are especially evident. Back to the play, your probably safe to call that a foul in a high school game but please don't call this a foul in a higher level game.

[crew]

i would call this play the same on highschool and college level. you would not?

[eroe39]

Actually, I would not have a foul on this play even in a junior high game. I'm just saying you would probably be safe even if you called a foul, meaning the coaches and players probably wouldn't protest the call too much because they are used to officials calling blocked shots fouls. In the pro game if you call that a foul, be prepared to follow up with a technical.

[crew]

eli,
say you make this call and know you missed it how much rope would you give a player or coach? meaning do you allow them to vent even more than normal.
if i know i have missed a call the player or coach gets a little more leeway. i dont automatically stick it to him.

[eroe39]

Crew, when I have a tough play or a play that I feel I might of missed I will definitely let the coach get away with a little more than normal. However, I'll still whack him if he gets too crazy. I'll let him vent and get it out of the way. But he can't harp on it the next four times down the floor. If I get a chance to be near him I will tell him "Coach, it was a tough play. I might have missed it" or "Coach, if it happend the way you say it did, I missed it. I did not see so and so foul him ect..." or simply "Coach, I missed that one." Also, in the last two minutes of a close game I will let the coach react a little more than normal since the game is getting tense and it is only human for his emotions to go up.

[crew]

i totally agree.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by crew
on fast break situation (1 0n 2) (a1 vs b1,b2) a1 drives the ball to the basket, beats b1 and goes for the lay in. at the same time b2 jumps from secondary coverage and blocks the ball and it sails near the center court. after the blocked shot and before the 2 come to the ground b2 makes body contact with a1 and a1 subsequently goes to the floor.

Eli,I can see the points you are trying to make,but...!Unless I am reading the above wrong,you have an airborne shooter who is actually knocked to the floor.It sounds like it's not a case of contact on the arm,body,etc., or something that maybe doesn't basically affect the shot.That's judgement whether you call it,or pass.Where do you draw the line when the defender maybe makes a reasonable block,but the shooter then get's knocked down or put into the basketball support?The shooter is awful vulnerable when he is up there,and when he left his feet he had a clear path to the basket.Sometimes it doesn't take that much contact to put him flat on his back.That can be one of the most dangerous plays in basketball.Your thoughts?

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Dec 18th, 2001 at 05:14 AM]

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Eli,

As I stated in an earlier posting, for a block shot to be a good block shot the defender must be in control of his body. If he cannot block the shot without making illegal contact elsewhere on the shooters body, the defender is guilty of a foul. Just because the defender blocked the shoot is no reason to excuse other illegal contact by the defender against the shooter.

I can understand the defender, coaches, and fans only concentrating on the blocked shot, but we as officials have to see the whole play. If we ignore the whole play, then we put the shooter at a disadvantage that was not intended by the rules.