gps-4

[Larks]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Eli,

As I stated in an earlier posting, for a block shot to be a good block shot the defender must be in control of his body. If he cannot block the shot without making illegal contact elsewhere on the shooters body, the defender is guilty of a foul. Just because the defender blocked the shoot is no reason to excuse other illegal contact by the defender against the shooter.

I can understand the defender, coaches, and fans only concentrating on the blocked shot, but we as officials have to see the whole play. If we ignore the whole play, then we put the shooter at a disadvantage that was not intended by the rules.

I'm going with the old guys!.....Airborne shooter trumps a great block. I agree that basketball is an athletic sport and there is a degree of letting the players play to a certain limit. But you gotta protect the shooter.

Larks.....Old Refs never die....they just puke on shoes!

[crew]

j r,
i am not eli but i will give my theory. if contact is made after the blocked shot and the contact is minimal(even if the shooter goes to floor), i would not call it. but if the contact is severe and the shooter is thrown into the stanchon, or a train wreck then a foul will be assessed. in the original post i tried to make the contact appear a little more than minimal. that is a situation i would not call foul. these are just my thoughts on the play.

[eroe39]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Eli,I can see the points you are trying to make,but...!Unless I am reading the above wrong,you have an airborne shooter who is actually knocked to the floor.It sounds like it's not a case of contact on the arm,body,etc., or something that maybe doesn't basically affect the shot.That's judgement whether you call it,or pass.Where do you draw the line when the defender maybe makes a reasonable block,but the shooter then get's knocked down or put into the basketball support?The shooter is awful vulnerable when he is up there,and when he left his feet he had a clear path to the basket.Sometimes it doesn't take that much contact to put him flat on his back.That can be one of the most dangerous plays in basketball.Your thoughts?

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Dec 18th, 2001 at 05:14 AM]

Jurassic Ref, good point. Let me first reiterate that I believe the defender is allowed to make contact after the block, thus the contact does not affect the shot. However, if the defender goes through the body first and then blocks the ball well afterwards I would have a foul. On the play you described I would probably have a foul. It seems that the play you are talking about is when a player has a breakaway and then the defender comes from behind and blocks the shot first and then the body contact is severe and causes him to go to the floor and hit the support. If the contact is severe throw my theory out the window and call a foul. On the original play that crew brought up I was thinking more along the lines of an Allen Iverson trying to weave his way through Robert Horry and Shaq and Iverson is off balance putting up some crazy shot that Shaq deposits in the fifth row and then Shaq makes body contact with Iverson which sends Iverson to the floor only because he was off balance anyway. A foul here would not fit the game and would be a bail out call.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Dallas Shirly use to say: "Never say never and never say always." But just because a defender makes contact with the ball first does not mean that he can make contact with the ball handler after that. That is an absurd statement. I can see players saying: "You cannot call a foul on me, I made contact with the ball first; that allows me to play recklessly and out of control.

[Larks]

On the original play that crew brought up I was thinking more along the lines of an Allen Iverson trying to weave his way through Robert Horry and Shaq and Iverson is off balance putting up some crazy shot that Shaq deposits in the fifth row and then Shaq makes body contact with Iverson which sends Iverson to the floor only because he was off balance anyway. A foul here would not fit the game and would be a bail out call. [/QUOTE]

Eli...I'm glad you brought up Bail outs....as a rec player, I used to hate it when Refs would bail a guy out of his circus act jump shot after incidental contact....look...if you come flying in the lane out of control leaning left following a 360 spin move (much the way I dive into bed at night....BTW, my wife hates when I do that), in my mind you give up a small portion of "AIRBORNE SHOOTER". I cant stand a guy bailed out because he can long jump into the paint while doing a triple gainor....I'm 6'4", 275lbs....where the hell can I go or what can I do to defend....

Now case in point....incidental contact...no foul....hard contact while in mid air....foul....at least in my ROOKIE opinion.

Larks...Rookie FAT guys cant jump therefore we are ALWAYS in control!

[Mark Padgett]

When I call a block and that coach complains that the shooter was "out of control", I ask him if he meant "out of player control, by rule?" They have no idea what you mean (usually) and just shut up (usually).

If they reply with something like, "No, just out of control", I ask them which definition in the rulebook are they using to define control, because the only ones are the definitions of "player control" and "team control". That always gets them to shut up.

Just another example of being "in control" of the game.

[Larks]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
When I call a block and that coach complains that the shooter was "out of control", I ask him if he meant "out of player control, by rule?" They have no idea what you mean (usually) and just shut up (usually).

If they reply with something like, "No, just out of control", I ask them which definition in the rulebook are they using to define control, because the only ones are the definitions of "player control" and "team control". That always gets them to shut up.

Just another example of being "in control" of the game.

Well put. I think you have to balance Player Control, Airborne Shooter and Incidental contact. I find these split second calls to be the hardest.

Ya know, come to think of it, my Rec team usually will get together after the triple gainor, 360 acrobat jump shot bail out and A) yell at the Refs for bailing him out...B) yell at each other for fouling and agree to hence forth just let him go b/c these are in reality low percentage shots....and C....walk back to the official who called the bail out....and PUKE ON HIS SHOES!

Larks....Rookies can Puke too ya know!

[eroe39]

Mark, good point, never heard of Dallas Shirley though. I do agree that this should not be some all encompassing statement with no exceptions. As I stated before if the contact after the block is violent or severe I would have a foul. I'm just saying as a rule of thumb to not call fouls after the ball is initially blocked, of course, there are exceptions though.

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by Larks
[QUOTEYa know, come to think of it, my Rec team usually will get together after the triple gainor, 360 acrobat jump shot bail out and A) yell at the Refs for bailing him out...B) yell at each other for fouling and agree to hence forth just let him go

I think its always important to realize that the team that fouled the off-balance, out-of-control shooter bailed him out, not the ref. Fouls are fouls. Just as if you try (and fail) to make an acrobatic catch on a ball that is going OOB off the other team - bad decision, violation on you when the ball goes OOB off you. Ref didn't bail them out - you did.

I agree with Mark in general that the airborn shooter rule applies, though I would think that the criteria for what is more than incidental contact goes up a bit when you hit ball cleanly before contacting shooter - and no, the rules don't read that way. But I also strongly feel that it isn't anything goes. If you block the shot and come through the arm hard, that's a foul. Block the shot and have a touch of the arm, no foul. Come through the arm to block the shot, needs to be a foul because that wasn't an athletic play, it's fouling someone in order to get to the ball.

But when the game is banging inside, if you call every touch of the arm or body a foul, we are going to be playing 3 on 3 by the end of the night!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by eroe39
Mark, good point, never heard of Dallas Shirley though. I do agree that this should not be some all encompassing statement with no exceptions. As I stated before if the contact after the block is violent or severe I would have a foul. I'm just saying as a rule of thumb to not call fouls after the ball is initially blocked, of course, there are exceptions though.

Eli,that was my point.You can have a player try a block from an angle,not from behind,and just catch enough body to throw the shooter off-balance and put him down.I had that happen once and a broken hip resulted from minimal contact.You can also easily undercut a player on a rebound with minimal contact.Other times,you can have a fair amount of contact,without anything really happening that would affect the play or endanger the shooter.Every play is unique and has to be judged on it's own merit.I think that one of the problems is that if you pass on a player getting knocked down at one end,you then have to pass on a player getting knocked down at the other end--and keep passing on it.Even though the reasons the shooter went to the floor may be completely different,it's a hard sell to the other team if you now call it.I just don't think that you can make any hard and fast rule,unless you say"if I think it's a foul,it's a foul".

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by eroe39
Mark, good point, never heard of Dallas Shirley though. I do agree that this should not be some all encompassing statement with no exceptions. As I stated before if the contact after the block is violent or severe I would have a foul. I'm just saying as a rule of thumb to not call fouls after the ball is initially blocked, of course, there are exceptions though.

Your assignment for this week is to find out who Dallas Shirley and tell the group who he is and what he has contributed to the profession of basketball officiating.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Your assignment for this week is to find out who Dallas Shirley and tell the group who he is and what he has contributed to the profession of basketball officiating.

Your assignment is to motivate us (ie tell us why we care).

BTW, I believe it's J. Dallas Shirley

[Edited by Dan_ref on Dec 18th, 2001 at 10:39 PM]

[BktBallRef]

#8 UK 78, #1 Duke 77, with 16.7 seconds remaining.

Jason Williams drives the lane.

Clean block by Kentucky's Prince.

Lots of contact on the airborne shooter, Williams, down low.

Guess what?

Andre Patillo - "TWEET!"

Foul on Prince!

Imagine that!

So much for that theory!

You guys are so full of crap!

[daves]

I agree with Mr. Denucci. Clear foul in my book. The blocked shot doesn't negate the contact down low. I would call this a blocking foul.

[Jurassic Referee]

[/B][/QUOTE]


Your assignment for this week is to find out who Dallas Shirley and tell the group who he is and what he has contributed to the profession of basketball officiating. [/B][/QUOTE]I've heard of Chicago Shirley and I can tell you what she contributed to MLB players.Is that close enough?: