gps-4

[crew]

nc2a 4-4.8.7
b1 is standing standing directly under the basket before a1 jumps for the layup. the forward momentum of airborn shooter a1 causes a1 to run into b1. RULING: b1 is not in legal guarding position. blocking foul on b1. (women)

though this is for the womens game it is taught at mens camps as well. it is good practice to call this a defensive foul. though you do not have to call the game as i do.

[zebraman]

In reply to the original post: Isn't this why we refs are told to "stay with the shooter" so we can make sure they don't get fouled after the ball is released?
I have a foul.

Z

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by crew
nc2a 4-4.8.7
b1 is standing standing directly under the basket before a1 jumps for the layup. the forward momentum of airborn shooter a1 causes a1 to run into b1. RULING: b1 is not in legal guarding position. blocking foul on b1. (women)

though this is for the womens game it is taught at mens camps as well. it is good practice to call this a defensive foul. though you do not have to call the game as i do.

Absolutely unbelievable!Good night,Crew.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by zebraman
In reply to the original post: Isn't this why we refs are told to "stay with the shooter" so we can make sure they don't get fouled after the ball is released?
I have a foul.

Z

Yes, but you also have to stay with the defense to make sure the defender doesn't foul the shooter from under the basket. If the defender does, it's a false multiple foul, and you go to the alternating-posession arrow on the scoreboard, not at the table.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by zebraman
In reply to the original post: Isn't this why we refs are told to "stay with the shooter" so we can make sure they don't get fouled after the ball is released?
I have a foul.

Z

You, my friend, are a newbie.

But you're a smart newbie!

Welcome aboard!

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
Yes, but you also have to stay with the defense to make sure the defender doesn't foul the shooter from under the basket. If the defender does, it's a false multiple foul, and you go to the alternating-posession arrow on the scoreboard, not at the table.

Mark, zebraman is new. When you post, tongue in cheek, you may want to add a .

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by crew
j.r.
the nc2a camps that i have attended, the clinicians(high ranking nc2a officials) have stated that this is good practice.
1. see the defender and locate where his feet are
2. see the play(start, middle, end) and let it develop.
3. judgement-if the defender is under the basket. no call or block. they also inform us to observe the outcome of the play.
a. is this a train wreck and the offensive misses the shot? yes-foul.
b. does the offensive player miss the shot? yes-foul.
c. does the offensive player make the shot? yes-pass on it.
d. is it a train wreck and the defender makes the shot? yes-foul.

yes, this is taught at nc2a camps.

Not withstanding Barb Jacob's riduculus inclusion of an NBA/WNBA interpretation in the NCAA Women's Rules. The NFHS and NCAA Men's Rules are quite clear. Any player is entitled to any spot on the court provided the player has legally secured that position. Therefore if B1 is standing under the basketball prior to A1 going airborne and A1 makes contact with B1 before returning to the floor then A1 is guilty of a charging foul under NFHS rules and maybe under NCAA Men's Rules.

NFHS: If A1 is an airborne shooter, then the foul is a player control foul even if the contact is after the ball has become dead. If A1 is an airborne player, the foul is a common foul (but is not a player control foul) as long as the contact occurs while the ball is live; if the ball is dead the contact is considered incidental unless the official judges it to be intentional or flagrant and in either case it would be a technical foul.

NCAA Men's: If A1 is in control of the ball when contact with B1 occurs, the foul is a player control foul by A1. If A1 is not in control of the ball and the ball is live when A1 makes contact with B1, the foul is a common foul (but is not a player control foul); if the ball is dead the contact is considered incidental unless the official judges it to be intentional or flagrant and in either case it would be a technical foul.

The real problem with this play (B1 is legally positioned under the basket), is that camp instructors and telling officials to either pass on the contact or call a blocking foul on B1. These instructors have absolutely no authority to tell officials to either disregard the rules of the game or to delibertely charge the wrong player with the foul. This nonsense has got to stop. It is absolutely disgusting that these instructors would tell officials to do such things.

[crew]

this is why you guy's arent instructors for the college game

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by crew
this is why you guy's arent instructors for the college game

As I have said before, my opinion on this matter is shared by many top flight officials at the high school and college level.

[crew]

mark,
your profile says womens college since 1974. do you not officiate the womens game as specified by barb jacobs?

[Jurassic Referee]

[/B][/QUOTE]


As I have said before, my opinion on this matter is shared by many top flight officials at the high school and college level. [/B][/QUOTE]Your opinion is shared by a lot of us low-flight officials,too.:Might as well give it up,Mark.You ain't gonna change his mind.Quoting rules to him,while he can't quote any back,seems to be completely irrelevant in these discussions.From now on,I think I'm gonna follow TH's lead and not reply directly anymore to his posts.Should save me a lot of aggravation and frustration.

[crew]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
[QUOTE

The real problem with this play (B1 is legally positioned under the basket), is that camp instructors and telling officials to either pass on the contact or call a blocking foul on B1. These instructors have absolutely no authority to tell officials to either disregard the rules of the game or to delibertely charge the wrong player with the foul. This nonsense has got to stop. It is absolutely disgusting that these instructors would tell officials to do such things.

if i want to officiate in these conferences i must officiate according to their instruction. though i agree with their philosophy, i understand your point of view. it is in the book.(men)
for the womens game i do not see the argument

[crew]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quoting rules to him,while he can't quote any back[/B][/QUOTE]

this is a lie! i have quote rules, though you disregard it.

[rainmaker]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by crew

if i want to officiate in these conferences i must officiate according to their instruction.

The question is, where DO you officiate? Is your Fed assignor aware of your disagreement with the block/charge rule? Do Fed coaches complain about you, but your assignor backs you up? What is your actual experience, as opposed to your philosophy?

I thought I read somewhere that you were fairly high up in the college ranks. Well, if your assignors there tell you to call this like the NBA, then, yes you should. But why are you telling us in the NFHS associations to call it like you do? Why not say, different levels require different interpretations and that's the way it should be, instead of insisting that your interpretation is the ONE BEST WAY for every game, every level, every situation?

To others who are responding: It may be hopeless to attempt to change tony's (small t) mind, but the responses are still important, since other newbies, and learners need to hear all the different points of view, so that they can find firm ground for their own philosophical decisions.

[Edited by rainmaker on Dec 25th, 2001 at 03:36 AM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rainmaker
To others who are responding: It may be hopeless to attempt to change tony's (small t) mind, but the responses are still important, since other newbies, and learners need to hear all the different points of view, so that they can find firm ground for their own philosophical decisions.

[Edited by rainmaker on Dec 25th, 2001 at 03:36 AM] [/B]

Good post,Juulie!Btw,you can add me in with the newbies and the learners--I've learned things from newbies and learners too(still am),and think that they have a fresh perspective on things that can really offer a lot.As for Crew,I'm with Big Tony.How can you discuss something with someone that insists he's 100% right,but can never find a written rule that will back his position?Philosophies are different at the various levels,but all the different levels do have rules that you should,at least,use as a guideline.Nope,not gonna play in his sandbox anymore.That's not personal,it's philosophical.
Here's hoping everyone has a great holiday.

[crew]

]

The question is, where DO you officiate?
florida
Is your Fed assignor aware of your disagreement with the block/charge rule?
yes
Do Fed coaches complain about you,
no, they love to see the college officials assigned to their games.
but your assignor backs you up?
he would if there was controversy, he is nc2a as well.
What is your actual experience, as opposed to your philosophy?
D1, D2, NAIA, JUCO, Florida highschool. mt philosophy comes from higher ranking nc2a and pro officials

[QUOTE]But why are you telling us in the NFHS associations to call it like you do?[QUOTE]
i am not, i just give my point of view, you can take it or leave it. it does not matter to me.

Why not say, different levels require different interpretations and that's the way it should be, instead of insisting that your interpretation is the ONE BEST WAY for every game, every level, every situation?

i just give my opinion.