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-   -   Pick / Charge (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/34468-pick-charge.html)

JRutledge Mon May 14, 2007 07:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdShot
I know. He said he's only seen this type of play twice in his career. It occurred three times in one nationally televised game last night (I'm not cherry picking one game from many months or years ago, and I can't find any NCAA or HS games on the tube right now).

I'm not saying anything about if the calls were right, wrong, etc. Or anything
about the NBA vs NCAA vs HS rules. There was also the inference that these
kind of bang bang collisions of a caught pass only happen when the receiver
lacks experience....these are all near All-Star NBA players that got whacked
when they turned their heads to catch a pass.

As someone said to me: it's called basketball.
Well it sounds to me like you are trying to make an easy situation very complicated. For one thing what is considered a blind screen can be very subjective. Every player has a right to a place on the floor and if someone is run over, someone that is standing there, then a foul is not likely to go to the person setting a "screen." Now if you cannot decide what to call, either you need to get more in the book or just use some common sense. But there is no requirement for a player to have a place to land when they are receiving a pass unless the defender purposely bodied up the offensive player. At some point you have to realize what the rulebook is trying to suggest and stop trying to make every situation into a black and white situation.

Peace

ColdShot Tue May 15, 2007 09:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
No, it didn't happen three times. Based on your post, it happened once last night. And I never inferred they only happen with inexperienced receivers. I said they dont' happen more often because most basketball players don't run blindly down the court; and most passers don't throw the ball over their teammates heads when there's a defender down there.
I guess you are right. The exact location of passer, receiver, and defender
wasn't exactly the same as the original example. In respect to the rule, and in regards to time, space, and line of sight required to field the pass, they were all the same. In each case the receiver must look away from his path to catch the pass, the defender moves into position as the receiver looks away and while the receiver is still moving without the ball (i.e. screening principles apply), the catch is made and contact occurs immediately (i.e. player control principles apply at the instant of contact). The receiver has no chance to see the defender or to avoid contact.

And yes, the passers lead the receivers into potential contact situations.
This same type of "rare" play occurred at least once in the Suns vs Spurs game last night. I think the passer was Nash.

We can agree to disagree if it's a good rule or not, but don't ask me to believe this type of play is "rare". Indeed, in my experience, there are fewer
blind screens at speed off the ball than on (defenders are focused on defending the player with the ball, and screener screen around the ball). Nonetheless, there is specific language in the rules to protect players without the ball in the SAME circumstance. All I'm saying is that the same rules that apply to the player a .1 of a second before he catches a pass (speed, distance, blind screen) should apply in the .1 of a second after he catches a pass. The way the rules read, and the way every respondent here posted (thanks to all for the clarifications), they don't.

Adam Tue May 15, 2007 11:51am
When you said it happens all the time, I thought you were referring to the pass receiver barreling full speed down court looking for a fast break. This is the type of play that you seemed most concerned about at the time; and it's probably one of the more dangerous scenarios. When I said it's rare, that's the specific situation I was referring to.
Now, in a half-court situation where the pass-receiver turns briefly to catch a pass, it's more likely and more common. I agree, even though I disagree with your opinion. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdShot
Nonetheless, there is specific language in the rules to protect players without the ball in the SAME circumstance. All I'm saying is that the same rules that apply to the player a .1 of a second before he catches a pass (speed, distance, blind screen) should apply in the .1 of a second after he catches a pass. The way the rules read, and the way every respondent here posted (thanks to all for the clarifications), they don't.
I'm assuming you want the screening principle extended to give time and distance requirements to the defense when a moving player catches the ball heading towards a blind screen. I like it the way it is, because the player catching the ball should expect someone will try to defend him. I like it the way it is, because the defense should be allowed to defend him.

Camron Rust Tue May 15, 2007 03:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdShot
I guess you are right. The exact location of passer, receiver, and defender
wasn't exactly the same as the original example. In respect to the rule, and in regards to time, space, and line of sight required to field the pass, they were all the same. In each case the receiver must look away from his path to catch the pass, the defender moves into position as the receiver looks away and while the receiver is still moving without the ball (i.e. screening principles apply), the catch is made and contact occurs immediately (i.e. player control principles apply at the instant of contact). The receiver has no chance to see the defender or to avoid contact.

And yes, the passers lead the receivers into potential contact situations.
This same type of "rare" play occurred at least once in the Suns vs Spurs game last night. I think the passer was Nash.

We can agree to disagree if it's a good rule or not, but don't ask me to believe this type of play is "rare". Indeed, in my experience, there are fewer
blind screens at speed off the ball than on (defenders are focused on defending the player with the ball, and screener screen around the ball). Nonetheless, there is specific language in the rules to protect players without the ball in the SAME circumstance. All I'm saying is that the same rules that apply to the player a .1 of a second before he catches a pass (speed, distance, blind screen) should apply in the .1 of a second after he catches a pass. The way the rules read, and the way every respondent here posted (thanks to all for the clarifications), they don't.
The whole point you're missing is that the defender doesn't magially appear in the spot. Before the offensive player turns their head away to catch the ball, the could/should see the defender in the area and should expect that such defender is going to actually be playing defense....atempting to stop the offensive player from advancing with the ball.

ColdShot Wed May 16, 2007 08:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust
The whole point you're missing is that the defender doesn't magially appear in the spot. Before the offensive player turns their head away to catch the ball, the could/should see the defender in the area and should expect that such defender is going to actually be playing defense....atempting to stop the offensive player from advancing with the ball.
No, I'm not missing this point at all, you are. I don't believe the defender "magially" appears in the spot, nor does the rule book. In a case where the offensive player cuts down the lane, looks for back for a pass, the defender slides over and creates contact in the instant after the player's head is turned screening principles apply as long as the pass *isn't* caught. If the pass *is* caught the rules (and you) change and expect the receiver to see the defender and/or be able to avoid him with no respect for speed and distance or line of sight. The physics of the play in respect to speed, distance, line of sight, don't have to change at all, but the rule does. With the ball the rules say charge, without the ball the *exact* same contact is a block or illegal screen. Sorry to cloud the issue with facts.

Jurassic Referee Wed May 16, 2007 09:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdShot
No, I'm not missing this point at all, you are. I don't believe the defender "magially" appears in the spot, nor does the rule book. In a case where the offensive player cuts down the lane, looks for back for a pass, the defender slides over and creates contact in the instant after the player's head is turned screening principles apply as long as the pass *isn't* caught. If the pass *is* caught the rules (and you) change and expect the receiver to see the defender and/or be able to avoid him with no respect for speed and distance or line of sight. The physics of the play in respect to speed, distance, line of sight, don't have to change at all, but the rule does. With the ball the rules say charge, without the ball the *exact* same contact is a block or illegal screen. Sorry to cloud the issue with facts.
Life....and the rules....suck.

It is what it is, whether you like it or agree with it. Let it go.

ColdShot Wed May 16, 2007 09:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Life....and the rules....suck.

It is what it is, whether you like it or agree with it. Let it go.
Now, now, now.... my left knee, right Achilles, and my lower back
are feeling good (um, er, OK). I'm playing in a rec-league game
against 20 somethings tonight. My 50 something buddy will be
officiating (last week he T'ed me up as a joke....I had told him
I'd never been T'ed in 40 years of organized hoop. T'ing me up
made his day).

Life is good.

And the rules are good. I just don't like this one.

Jurassic Referee Wed May 16, 2007 09:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdShot
Life is good.

And the rules are good. I just don't like this one.
Well, there's some rules that a lot of officials don't like either. Examples are having to be the Clothing Police out there and our all-time favorite- letting head coaches request a time-out.

We just gotta play the hand that we're dealt with.:)


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