Pick / Charge
 

Rec league game last night, very good officials, one a good
friend who does a lot of HS games, but we had two questions:

1) Ball is being passed in from the baseline after a made basket.
Offensive player is running towards half court, head turned back
to the baseline to see a pass. Defender takes position perhaps
2-3 steps before offensive player receives pass near midcourt,
but out of the offensive players field of view (he's looking back
for the pass). Collision occurs before offensive player can take
a full step after he catches the ball.

Block or charge?

2) Offense player has the ball in the lane. Shot is blocked and the ball is loose in the lane 4-5 seconds, several players are trying to pick it up, offense picks it up and three seconds is called instantly.

Valid call?

Thanks!

Bill


BTW, from the NCAA rulebook I found this. Does it apply in this case? If so
which part:

As the pass is made, B2 moves into the path of A1, in a guarding position. RULING: This action involves a screening principle. ***B2 has switched to guard a player who does not have the ball; therefore, the switching player shall assume a position one or two strides in advance of offensive post player A1 (depending upon the speed of movement of A1)
to make the action legal.***


***When it is a guarding situation involving the player with the ball, time and distance shall be irrelevant.***

Complete rule below.


Section 20. By Screener
Art. 1. A player shall not cause contact by setting a screen outside the
visual field of a stationary opponent that does not allow this opponent a
normal step to move.
Art. 2. A screener shall not make contact with the opponent when setting
a screen within the visual field of that opponent.
Art. 3. A screener shall not take a position so close to a moving opponent
that this opponent cannot avoid contact by stopping or changing direction.
A.R. 21. B1 maneuvers to a position in front of offensive post player A1 to prevent A1
from receiving the ball. A high pass is made out of the reach of B1. The offensive post
player A1 moves toward the basket to catch the pass and try for goal. As the pass is
made, B2 moves into the path of A1, in a guarding position. RULING: This action
involves a screening principle. ***B2 has switched to guard a player who does not have
the ball; therefore, the switching player shall assume a position one or two strides in
advance of offensive post player A1 (depending upon the speed of movement of A1)
to make the action legal.*** When A1 has control of the ball (provided that the offensive
post player A1 is not in the air at the time), the play shall become a guarding situation.
When it is a guarding situation involving the player with the ball, time and distance
shall be irrelevant.

Reply
 

Play 1: Once a defender has established LGP, Time and distance are not important. Definate player control unless LGP is stablished after offensiv play is in the air.

Play 2: 3 second count is only valid when there is team and player control in the front court.

1) Neither, however a travel will likely occurr.

2) sounds invalid, but maybe the official judged possession when you were judging loose ball.

1) Charge. The way you described it, the defender was there in plenty of time.
2) No 3 seconds without team control in the front court. As soon as the shot was taken, a new count can only start when an offensive player secures the rebound. Bad call.

Re. 1) Defender established LGP before offensive player has the ball. Why doesn't this apply?

"B2 has switched to guard ***a player who does not have
the ball;*** therefore, the switching player shall assume a position one or two strides in advance of offensive post player A1 (depending upon the speed of movement of A1) to make the action legal.***

Sorry
 

Player control reference relates to an interupted dribble (loose ball).

Not enough info to correctly answer.Need to know if the shot had left the shooter's hand(s) or not <b>before</b> the block.
- if the shot was blocked out of the shooter's hands(iow <b>before</b> it left the shooter's hand(s) on the shot), then team control is <b>not</b> lost and the 3-second count continues.
- if the shot was blocked <b>after</b> it left the shooter's hand(s), player control was lost and a new 3-second count would <b>not</b> be started until an offensive player gained control in their front-court with either themselves or a teammate in the lane.

The question: is there any protection under the rules for
a "pass receiver"? Aside from the screen rule I couldn't find
a thing. Indeed the receiver looses the "natural step" afforded
a screened player after he receives the ball. He may be running
at full speed, head turned looking for a pass, and the defender
can step in the instant he receives the ball, assuming the receiver
isn't airborne, right? The NFL affords more protection, under their
rules, for pass receivers in full pads and helmets. Or did I miss
something?

JR answered the second part of your post well. As far as the block/charge, that is a tough call. As described, I would be inclined to go with the charge, but that is a hard one to call without seeing it. More importantly than anything, make sure you have a whistle on a play like that, which it sounds as though you did.

What you cited from NCAA rules is basically the same under high school rules.

Here is an NFHS case book play that might explain it a little more fully to you:
<b><u>Casebook Play 10.6.3SitD:</u></b>
A1 is running towards A's goal but is looking back to receive a pass. B1 takes a position in the path of A1 while A1 is 10 feet away from B1. (a)A1 runs into B1 before receiving the ball, or (b) A1 receives the ball and runs into B1.
<b>RULING:</b> In both (a) and (b), A1 is responsible for contact. In (a), B1's position is legal if A1 has been given 2 strides prior to contact. In (b), since the position of B1 is legal when A1 has the ball, the contact is charging by B1.

Hope that helps.....

JR hit this already, but I want to only add that player control is not necessary for a three-second count. All that's required is team control in the front court. An interrupted dribble, for example, would not terminate nor suspend a three-second count.

Player control foul. Once A1 caught the ball, time and distance become irrelevant. Giving a player time to avoid the contact only applies to a player who doesn't have the ball. As soon as he caught the ball, he lost his "right" to time-and-distance guidelines. As my interpreter always told us, the guy with the ball has to expect to be guarded.

A couple other general comments that don't apply to this particular situation. If B1 established his position after A1 became airborne and the contact occurs before A1 lands, then it's a block whether A1 has control of the ball or not.

If A1 had not caught the ball cleanly (he was bobbling it), then it is a block because A1 still has not established control of the ball.

If it's such a close call that you can't tell who was responsible for the contact, a lot of officials will call a "phantom" travel, just to have a whistle. I'm not saying this is good or bad; just that it's often done.

As someone else already said, once the try is released, the 3-second count doesn't start again until the offensive team re-establishes team control in the frontcourt.

In op the defender was there 2 or 3 steps before the collision, and as I picture it defender remained stationary. In this case, how can it possibly be a block no matter what happens?

Someone help old Sam out here,:confused:

When does the stationery B1 tranfer from setting a blind screen to a player taking a charge?

I agree with #1, but could you explain situation #2 a bit more clearly? Is this after airborne A1 comes back down to the ground?

When A1 causes contact with him?

I'd say that B1 is guarding A1 from the beginning (getting in the path of an offensive player). Either way, I think B1 fits the description of a legal screen or a legal guarding position.

When the person he's screening gains control of the ball.

Has Zorro been unmasked? ;)

Much clearer now, though, although I think that the rules would indicate calling a block in both situations. Both 4-23-4 (opponent with the ball) and 4-23-5 (moving oponent without the ball) state that "If the opponent [with the ball] is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position before the opponent left the floor."

Yes, but in Chuck's example, he stated

Once A1 returns to the floor, he's no longer airborne. So if B1 is stationary, catch-land-crash is a player control foul, even if B1 got to his spot after A1 went airborne.

Block/Charge...

The defender is required to give time and distance only if the opponent doesn't have the ball. In this case, the defender, at first, was required to give 2 steps (opponent was running full speed without the ball). However, once the opponent catches the ball, the time/distance requirements are eliminated.

So, if the defender gets the same position giving one step (for example) until contact, the call depends on whether the offensive player catches the ball. Catch...charge, no catch....block.

If the offensive player was airborne at the time the defender took thier position, the offensive player must be allowed room to land. Once they land, the same requirements exist as if they never jumped...time and distance if they don't have the ball.

If the defender took thier position before the offensive player jumped, the defender need not give them a place to land if they have the ball (at the time of contact) but may need to give space to land if they don't.

(this was composed 2 hours before I submitted it so it might be redundant with other's posts by now)

No.

Merely typing in the wrong window.

If A1 had not received a pass, it would have been a blind screen with no foul.
Correct?

Junker:

Please elaborate on why the block/charge play, as described in the origianl post, is a tough call. As described in the orginal post, this is a charge even if the offensive player never gets the ball. The defender met all of the requirements for obtaining/establishing a legal guarding position.

MTD, Sr.

I'm a bit dizzy (part reading this and part having a headache) and still not comprehending the multiple merged scenarios above? Anyone care to explain at a level that someone whose brain is burned out from studying can comprehend?

"Here is an NFHS case book play that might explain it a little more fully to you:
Casebook Play 10.6.3SitD:
A1 is running towards A's goal but is looking back to receive a pass. B1 takes a position in the path of A1 while A1 is 10 feet away from B1. (a)A1 runs into B1 before receiving the ball, or (b) A1 receives the ball and runs into B1.
RULING: In both (a) and (b), A1 is responsible for contact. In (a), B1's position is legal if A1 has been given 2 strides prior to contact. In (b), since the position of B1 is legal when A1 has the ball, the contact is charging by B1."

Thanks. Clearly by the rules it is a charge. I have a problem with the rule :-).
A fast player covers "10 feet" in about .3 seconds. He's supposed to be able to catch a pass, turn his head, see the defender, and avoid him in .3 seconds
or less according to both the NFHS and NCAA examples and rules. Indeed, since "speed and distance" do not apply to the player with the ball, the defender doesn't have to give any time or space before stepping in assuming LGP, correct?

There's different concepts involved depending on whether the offensive player has control of the ball or not.
1) If the player doesn't have the ball, "screening" principles apply and the defender has to give "time and distance" to a <b>moving</b> opponent. Iow, they have to give the other player time to stop or change directions. The required distance is 1-2 steps, but the <b>maximum</b> that must be allowed is 2 steps.
2) If the player does have the ball, then "guarding" principles are involved instead. To establish a legal guarding position, the defender does <b>not</b> have to allow time and distance. The only requirements to <b>establish</b> an initial legal guarding position are (a) the defender must establish himself in the offensive player's path with both feet on the court, and (b) the defender must be facing the offensive player at that particular time. If the defensive player can do that and then maintain that legal guarding position, the onus for contact lies with the offensive player. There is no requirement for the defender to give any distance at all after establishing an initial legal guarding position.

Make any sense now?

No....the issue that I have a problem with is the combination of 1) and 2) where the receiver doesn't have the ball one instant and ""screening" principles apply", then suddenly ""guarding" principles are involved instead" as he catches the pass. The instantaneous transition, and completely different set of rules, is what I have a problem with.

Basically, if a player knows he is about to catch the ball and needs to be aware of where other players. Before he turns his head to the ball, he should ensure that is path is clear. More than likely, the player was looking over his shoulder for several steps while the defender was waiting to cut off his path.

When would you prefer the "transition" to take place? How would that be enforced?

But that's not when the transition occurs. As soon as the "reciever's" (A1) team has the ball, B1 is guarding him (or, at least, has the opportunity to get into a legal guarding position). The only difference is then guarding a player with the ball vs. guarding a player without the ball.

I would prefer the player catching the pass be afforded the same "time and
distance" he had the .1 of a second before he caught the pass. It could be
enforced the same way an illegal screen is enforced, but since the player with the ball is fouled it would be a blocking foul on the defender.

The wording and the specific example in the rulebook protects an offensive player running down the court without the ball: "If the player doesn't have the ball, "screening" principles apply and the defender has to give "time and distance" to a moving opponent. Iow, they have to give the other player time to stop or change directions."

It would seem the thinking involved with "guarding principles" for the player
with the ball assumes he is dribbling into a defender or otherwise has the opportunity to see him and avoid him. "Screening principles" assume a player may be blind screened or otherwise be put in a situation where it is physically impossible to avoid the screener (so he is given "time and space")....this is the same situation a pass receiver may be in.

Camron Rust said:
"Basically, if a player knows he is about to catch the ball and needs to be aware of where other players [are]. Before he turns his head to the ball, he should ensure that is path is clear. More than likely, the player was looking over his shoulder..."

Well, yes. If you are running away from the ball you must look back over your shoulder to catch it. A long pass could be in the air 1-2 seconds. Even at half speed players could move 15-30 feet in that time. Again, the rules allow the same offensive player "time and space" when the pass is in the air, but the instant he catches it those same rules no longer apply. A defender behind the play can gauge the pass, receiver, speed, etc. and step in (to LGP) the instant the pass is caught *legally*. Even the NFL has rules to protect receivers in this type of case.

Assuming Fed rules...
 

Player control foul. Had A1 not caught the ball, it sounds like B1 gave proper time and distance, so he is entitled to that position on the floor. Would have been a charge in that case.

Depends. Once the shot attempt has released A1's hands, the 3 second count is terminated and not restarted all criteria exist again. Did that happen? If so, not valid. If blocked while still in A1's hands, you still have the count going.

Remember, the maximum requirement for time and distance on a screen is 2 steps. 15 feet maybe. 30? Not a chance. If a player is turning his head to catch a pass, and the pass takes that long in the air, he's got a chance to turn his head to see the path. Also, that's what his teammates are for.

I'm not saying 2 steps is 30 feet. I'm saying a defender could move 15-30 feet while a pass is in the air (1-2 seconds). The receiver could check his path, turn for the ball, and the defender could move into his path. It's not like this type of collision is rare. They happen all the time. Again, the point is the defender doesn't have to give *any space* according to the rule once the pass is caught. Why do you even mention "2 steps"?

The receiver doesn't have to run looking back over his/her shoulder. The fact that the player is not looking where they are going doesn't absolve them of contact of a defender jumps into their path after they look away.

I mentioned it because you're saying he could go 30 feeet during that time. My point is that's irrelevant even if the player doesn't have the ball; because this player only gets two steps maximum. He could be able to travel the length of the floor while the pass is in the air, but unless he can do it in two steps, it doesn't matter whether he has the ball or not.

Basically, my point is the distance a player can move isn't relevant.

I know what you're saying, but the fact is once a player gets the ball he has to expect to be guarded. That's basketball.

And you say these "happen all the time?" Not in my experience. Most offensive players have learned to look for it.

If the ball is thrown from behind a player as he runs down the court, how is
he going to catch it if he doesn't look back? :D

They happen often enough for the rules to protect players *without* the
ball in the same circumstance.... The rules also offer protection (time and distance) for players without the ball even if the screener is right in his line of sight. I would say the reason they don't happen more often is the *defenders* know the offensive player receiving a pass can often neither see them or avoid them. They understand if they step in front of receiver, moving at speed, and turning his head to see the ball (so he can catch it) there will likely be a violent collision. The defender doesn't want to get a head full of teeth (or a mouthful
of face).

The rule is more specifically designed to protect defensive players from blind screens; but the screening principals apply to all players without the ball. The rules assume a player with the ball knows both where he is heading and who is in his way. This also applies to a player who knows he is about to receive the ball.
You said it happens "all the time." It doesn't. Frankly, I haven't witnessed the original scenario more than a couple times in my career. It's rare, to be honest. I'd say it's rare because offensive players don't tend to run blind.

Really?

Utah vs Golden State last night:

First half:

Kirilenko moving without the ball on the left side of the lane, pass from the
left corner forces him to look away from the hoop, player steps in on his
blind side just after the catch, collision before a full step, block called.

Oukur, moving without the ball on the left side of the lane, pass from the
left wing forces him to look away from the hoop, Ellis steps in on his
blind side just after the catch, collision before a full step, charge called.

Second half:

Boozer running near the top of the key without the ball, pass comes from back court forces him to look away from the hoop, Biedrins steps in, near
instantaneous contact, travel called (couldn't see the steps because of the
camera angle, but as mentioned earlier in this thread officials sometimes
call a travel in this case when they are not sure).

The Boozer play was exactly like the original examples, the other two
had the same essential elements: offensive player *must* look away from
his path to catch a pass and contact occurs immediately. While three of
these in the same game might be unusual, seeing only two in your entire
career is a bit hard to believe: I was born at night, but I wasn't born
last night. ;)

NBA.......High School Game.........NCAA game.......not quite the same thing.

I would bet some money that the rules are not the same as it relates to all these issues.

Pro players do all kinds of things to draw fouls or to stop players from movement. They scout teams a lot more and they are much more knowledgeable about the game as a whole.

So if you have an example that took place in the NCAA Tournament, I might go with you there. If all you have is some NBA scenario which none of us here do or experience and most do not even watch, then that is not going to fly.

Peace

NBA rules do <b>NOT</b> equate to college or high school basketball. Ever! NBA rules are completely different than NFHS or NCAA rules. The officiating philosophies are completely different also.

You might not have been born last night, but you sureasheck are awfully slow to pick up the concepts of what people have been trying to explain to you. Believe it or not, what you've been told so far are the <b>rules</b> for high school and college basketball. If you don't choose to believe what you're being told, that's unfortunate. If you don't like the rule, that's unfortunate also. Meanwhile, it doesn't change reality.

My point was simply that it doesn't happen "all the time." I'd go so far as to say it's rare for the situation in the OP to occur in organized ball. That it happened once in an NBA playoff game doesn't change that.

FWIW, I sympathize with thinking some rules need changed. I just don't think this is one. :)

I know. He said he's only seen this type of play twice in his career. It occurred three times in one nationally televised game last night (I'm not cherry picking one game from many months or years ago, and I can't find any NCAA or HS games on the tube right now).

I'm not saying anything about if the calls were right, wrong, etc. Or anything
about the NBA vs NCAA vs HS rules. There was also the inference that these
kind of bang bang collisions of a caught pass only happen when the receiver
lacks experience....these are all near All-Star NBA players that got whacked
when they turned their heads to catch a pass.

As someone said to me: it's called basketball.

No, it didn't happen three times. Based on your post, it happened once last night. And I never inferred they only happen with inexperienced receivers. I said they dont' happen more often because most basketball players don't run blindly down the court; and most passers don't throw the ball over their teammates heads when there's a defender down there.

Well it sounds to me like you are trying to make an easy situation very complicated. For one thing what is considered a blind screen can be very subjective. Every player has a right to a place on the floor and if someone is run over, someone that is standing there, then a foul is not likely to go to the person setting a "screen." Now if you cannot decide what to call, either you need to get more in the book or just use some common sense. But there is no requirement for a player to have a place to land when they are receiving a pass unless the defender purposely bodied up the offensive player. At some point you have to realize what the rulebook is trying to suggest and stop trying to make every situation into a black and white situation.

Peace

I guess you are right. The exact location of passer, receiver, and defender
wasn't exactly the same as the original example. In respect to the rule, and in regards to time, space, and line of sight required to field the pass, they were all the same. In each case the receiver must look away from his path to catch the pass, the defender moves into position as the receiver looks away and while the receiver is still moving without the ball (i.e. screening principles apply), the catch is made and contact occurs immediately (i.e. player control principles apply at the instant of contact). The receiver has no chance to see the defender or to avoid contact.

And yes, the passers lead the receivers into potential contact situations.
This same type of "rare" play occurred at least once in the Suns vs Spurs game last night. I think the passer was Nash.

We can agree to disagree if it's a good rule or not, but don't ask me to believe this type of play is "rare". Indeed, in my experience, there are fewer
blind screens at speed off the ball than on (defenders are focused on defending the player with the ball, and screener screen around the ball). Nonetheless, there is specific language in the rules to protect players without the ball in the SAME circumstance. All I'm saying is that the same rules that apply to the player a .1 of a second before he catches a pass (speed, distance, blind screen) should apply in the .1 of a second after he catches a pass. The way the rules read, and the way every respondent here posted (thanks to all for the clarifications), they don't.

When you said it happens all the time, I thought you were referring to the pass receiver barreling full speed down court looking for a fast break. This is the type of play that you seemed most concerned about at the time; and it's probably one of the more dangerous scenarios. When I said it's rare, that's the specific situation I was referring to.
Now, in a half-court situation where the pass-receiver turns briefly to catch a pass, it's more likely and more common. I agree, even though I disagree with your opinion. :)

I'm assuming you want the screening principle extended to give time and distance requirements to the defense when a moving player catches the ball heading towards a blind screen. I like it the way it is, because the player catching the ball should expect someone will try to defend him. I like it the way it is, because the defense should be allowed to defend him.

The whole point you're missing is that the defender doesn't magially appear in the spot. Before the offensive player turns their head away to catch the ball, the could/should see the defender in the area and should expect that such defender is going to actually be playing defense....atempting to stop the offensive player from advancing with the ball.

No, I'm not missing this point at all, you are. I don't believe the defender "magially" appears in the spot, nor does the rule book. In a case where the offensive player cuts down the lane, looks for back for a pass, the defender slides over and creates contact in the instant after the player's head is turned screening principles apply as long as the pass *isn't* caught. If the pass *is* caught the rules (and you) change and expect the receiver to see the defender and/or be able to avoid him with no respect for speed and distance or line of sight. The physics of the play in respect to speed, distance, line of sight, don't have to change at all, but the rule does. With the ball the rules say charge, without the ball the *exact* same contact is a block or illegal screen. Sorry to cloud the issue with facts.

Life....and the rules....suck.

It is what it is, whether you like it or agree with it. Let it go.

Now, now, now.... my left knee, right Achilles, and my lower back
are feeling good (um, er, OK). I'm playing in a rec-league game
against 20 somethings tonight. My 50 something buddy will be
officiating (last week he T'ed me up as a joke....I had told him
I'd never been T'ed in 40 years of organized hoop. T'ing me up
made his day).

Life is good.

And the rules are good. I just don't like this one.

Well, there's some rules that a lot of officials don't like either. Examples are having to be the Clothing Police out there and our all-time favorite- letting head coaches request a time-out.

We just gotta play the hand that we're dealt with.:)