Self bat

Jurassic Referee · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 01:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

JR that same case play 4.15.4SitE(b). The ruling specifically says since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is an illegal dribble.

Joe, that case play is referencing rule 4-15-1. The player is starting a dribble. If he grabs the ball before it hits the floor once, he has never legally dribbled. Iow, there never was a legal dribble involved. In the play being discussed, the player is in the middle of a legal dribble. All he is doing is ending that legal dribble.

Scrapper1 · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 02:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The player is starting a dribble.

Interesting. I hadn't noticed that the case play is about starting the dribble. But I don't see how it can be legal to bat the ball in the air during a dribble, take several steps, and then catch the ball. I think the case play has to cover the play under discussion. The bat and subsequent catch would have to be an illegal dribble, no?

JoeTheRef · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 02:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Interesting. I hadn't noticed that the case play is about starting the dribble. But I don't see how it can be legal to bat the ball in the air during a dribble, take several steps, and then catch the ball. I think the case play has to cover the play under discussion. The bat and subsequent catch would have to be an illegal dribble, no?

I agree. In the OP A1 is dribbling down court in a 1 and 1 situation. Bat, toss, throw the ball over B1's head, then catch it constitutes an illegal dribble. Again, the ruling in 4.15.4(rule "when the dribble ends") Sit.E(b) specifically states "since the ball did not touch the floor, the toss and the subsequent catch is an illegal dribble.

Jurassic Referee · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 02:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

But I don't see how it can be legal to bat the ball in the air during a dribble, take several steps, and then catch the ball.

Scrappy, if the player fumbled the ball, took several steps and then caught the ball, would that be illegal also? Can you cite a rule that says it is illegal?

Casebook play 4.15.4SitD(a) says that you can't continue to dribble after you make a second touch during a single dribble. It doesn't say that its illegal to end a dribble that way though. The player simply ended a legal dribble. What he subsequently does will determine the further legality of the play.

Casebook play 4.15.4SitE(b) is about starting a dribble. There never was a legal dribble because the ball never touched the floor before the illegal second touching. Rule 4-15-1.

Dan_ref · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 02:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

In the play being discussed, the player is in the middle of a legal dribble. All he is doing is ending that legal dribble.

How can a player bat the ball, take a few steps, jump in the air & catch it without ending his dribble?

IOW to do this he needs to bat the ball up, not down. Ending his dribble.

If this is not the case then I agree, he's in the middle of a dribble. But I can't see it happening that way.

edit
oops, just saw that Scrappy said the same thing.

M&M Guy · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 02:36pm

What about 4-15-2? "During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s)." Isn't what happened in the OP where the ball was caught before it hit the ground again? So, it is a violation, only because the ball didn't hit the ground before the catch-and-shoot. It cannot be traveling, because until the ball is touched by the hand(s) before it hits the ground, it is still part of a legal dribble, so it wouldn't matter how many steps are taken before the next legal bat.

Scrapper1 · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 03:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

What about 4-15-2? "During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s)."

Bingo. Thanks. I had the case play in my head. Should've just gone to the rule.

Jurassic Referee · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 03:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

What about 4-15-2? "During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s)." Isn't what happened in the OP where the ball was caught before it hit the ground again? So, it is a violation, only because the ball didn't hit the ground before the catch-and-shoot. It cannot be traveling, because until the ball is touched by the hand(s) before it hits the ground, it is still part of a legal dribble, so it wouldn't matter how many steps are taken before the next legal bat.

What about 4-15-4(a)-"The dribble ends when the dribbler catches or causes the ball to come to rest in both hands".? Isn't that what actually happened in this play? You just apply R4-44-2 to the subsequent action.

You're overthinking the hell outa this one imo.

Scrapper1 · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 03:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What about 4-15-4(a)-"The dribble ends when the dribbler catches or causes the ball to come to rest in both hands".?

What about it? It tells us when the dribble ended. Great. But M&M Guy's cite tells us that play is a violation. He ended the dribble by violating.

Jurassic Referee · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 04:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

What about it? It tells us when the dribble ended. Great. But M&M Guy's cite tells us that play is a violation. He ended the dribble by violating.

What violation? Rules citation please?

M&M Guy · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 04:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What violation? Rules citation please?

...sigh...

4-15-2.

M&M Guy · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 03:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What about 4-15-4(a)-"The dribble ends when the dribbler catches or causes the ball to come to rest in both hands".? Isn't that what actually happened in this play? You just apply R4-44-2 to the subsequent action.

You're overthinking the hell outa this one imo.

It has been a real long time since anyone has accused me of overthinking something.

Go back and look at the original post - he says the player was dribbling up the court in a one-on-one situation, batted the ball over the head of the defender, caught it before it hit the ground and shot all in one motion. The violation occured because he caught it before it hit the ground, per 4-15-2. If, for example, the ball hit the ground behind the defender after the bat, then he catches it and shoots in one motion, it would be a legal play.

rockyroad · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 03:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

It has been a real long time since anyone has accused me of overthinking something.

Go back and look at the original post - he says the player was dribbling up the court in a one-on-one situation, batted the ball over the head of the defender, caught it before it hit the ground and shot all in one motion. The violation occured because he caught it before it hit the ground, per 4-15-2. If, for example, the ball hit the ground behind the defender after the bat, then he catches it and shoots in one motion, it would be a legal play.

Actually the OP says he JUMPED and caught the ball while in the air and then shot it before landing...exactly what violation will you call?

M&M Guy · #14 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 03:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Actually the OP says he JUMPED and caught the ball while in the air and then shot it before landing...exactly what violation will you call?

Illegal dribble, per 4-15-2. Remember, his jump, catch and shot was after the bat over the defender's head. It would've been legal if the ball hit the ground first.

bob jenkins · #15 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 03:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Actually the OP says he JUMPED and caught the ball while in the air and then shot it before landing...exactly what violation will you call?

The violation for "batting the ball in the air and touching it again before it hit the ground." Illegal dribble.